Hi guys
I am very new to this forum. I am quite amazed at the knowledge base here.
I am a part time hobby wood worker with a full shop in my basement. I am in the process of completing my first set of speaker cabinets. As far as the design and style goes I am copying the Genesis 6.1 e, except I will be using a horn .
My plan for the cabinets is this. I have completed the MDF "inside cabinet" That is the actual cabinet that all the bracing and guts will go into. I am also going to use solid wood to cover the sides and the front. The sides will be Eastern Maple and the baffle will be a 1.5 " hunk of American Black Walnut on top of the 3/4 mdf inside baffle.
My question. Aside for the obvious cost savings of MDF and the ease of workability, would I not be better off just making the speakers out of solid wood?
I understand that MDF is dense but so are a number of good hard woods. Opinions?
Since this is my first project I did not want to shell out the bucks for a solid wood cabinet, but in the future I would llike to go with just wood. Is this a good idea or should I continoue to make a double box design? Sound is #1 but the appearance of a finely made cabinet is also very important to me.
I am very new to this forum. I am quite amazed at the knowledge base here.
I am a part time hobby wood worker with a full shop in my basement. I am in the process of completing my first set of speaker cabinets. As far as the design and style goes I am copying the Genesis 6.1 e, except I will be using a horn .
My plan for the cabinets is this. I have completed the MDF "inside cabinet" That is the actual cabinet that all the bracing and guts will go into. I am also going to use solid wood to cover the sides and the front. The sides will be Eastern Maple and the baffle will be a 1.5 " hunk of American Black Walnut on top of the 3/4 mdf inside baffle.
My question. Aside for the obvious cost savings of MDF and the ease of workability, would I not be better off just making the speakers out of solid wood?
I understand that MDF is dense but so are a number of good hard woods. Opinions?
Since this is my first project I did not want to shell out the bucks for a solid wood cabinet, but in the future I would llike to go with just wood. Is this a good idea or should I continoue to make a double box design? Sound is #1 but the appearance of a finely made cabinet is also very important to me.
Hi Paul,
You can make them from whatever you like. One of the reasons a lot of people don't use solid wood is that every wood will have it's own sonic character. Just like a violin or a piano sounding board, the cabinet will colour the sound. The idea of a speaker is to reproduce the input signal not introduce it's own qualities. MDF and plywood tend to have less affect and are easier to work with and often more stable. Your way is fine but I know someone in this thread will want to know how you are planning to bond the two so I'll be first to ask.
You can make them from whatever you like. One of the reasons a lot of people don't use solid wood is that every wood will have it's own sonic character. Just like a violin or a piano sounding board, the cabinet will colour the sound. The idea of a speaker is to reproduce the input signal not introduce it's own qualities. MDF and plywood tend to have less affect and are easier to work with and often more stable. Your way is fine but I know someone in this thread will want to know how you are planning to bond the two so I'll be first to ask.
I have used couple of speakers that i "build"(ask a carpenter to built). The design were my own.
I notice MDF is not a great material sonically. Inherently dead but that the problem, it tends to muffle down on the bass and vocals and seems to limit the sparkle in the highs. They are also much slower
MDF may be dense but because of its molecular structure displays this effect.
However FOR box speakers and bright sounding speakers MDF is good to be used, esp speakers like fostex 206,lowther the mdf tameds them down.
FOr horn, avoid mdf at all cost. THe mdf really sucks out the life on horns.
If possible try to find either hard wood or marine ply. I love marine ply very lively and tunefull bass not deep and low like mdf but very tunefull with texture bass output. Also with marine ply the highs are sparkling. The ply i used is a hardwood from indonesia where the wood is dense. it is a 3/4 or 18mm ply with 13 pcs of ply used. This unlike normal ply wood where they used less pcs of ply. Also the marine ply i used is very much heavier than the normal ply and i beileve comparable to mdf
Hardwood i have only use oak before and i love it. However hardwood is too hard to use when making big speakers as they don't come in that size i believe.
MDF when cutted emits so much of dust. May not be worthwhile after the clean up. The dust lingers in the air after the cut takes placce. Very unsafe,
Again this my observation.
I notice MDF is not a great material sonically. Inherently dead but that the problem, it tends to muffle down on the bass and vocals and seems to limit the sparkle in the highs. They are also much slower
MDF may be dense but because of its molecular structure displays this effect.
However FOR box speakers and bright sounding speakers MDF is good to be used, esp speakers like fostex 206,lowther the mdf tameds them down.
FOr horn, avoid mdf at all cost. THe mdf really sucks out the life on horns.
If possible try to find either hard wood or marine ply. I love marine ply very lively and tunefull bass not deep and low like mdf but very tunefull with texture bass output. Also with marine ply the highs are sparkling. The ply i used is a hardwood from indonesia where the wood is dense. it is a 3/4 or 18mm ply with 13 pcs of ply used. This unlike normal ply wood where they used less pcs of ply. Also the marine ply i used is very much heavier than the normal ply and i beileve comparable to mdf
Hardwood i have only use oak before and i love it. However hardwood is too hard to use when making big speakers as they don't come in that size i believe.
MDF when cutted emits so much of dust. May not be worthwhile after the clean up. The dust lingers in the air after the cut takes placce. Very unsafe,
Again this my observation.
Solid wood "checks" -- so you can get leaks -- this screws up the impedance of the air in the chamber. MDF had been preferred for its stiffness -- the only firm I know which utilizes the flexibility of real wood is the piano manufacturer Bossendorfer -- all of us mere mortals would prefer to have the speakers do the vibrating and the cabinet remain imobile.
I love MDF -- a suggestion -- get the MDF used for shelves or those already cut into 8 square foot dimensions --
I love MDF -- a suggestion -- get the MDF used for shelves or those already cut into 8 square foot dimensions --
Any good cabinet maker knows that wood moves with seasonal variation. The whole concept of "wood working" is to allow a natural material to expand and contract with varying moisture contents. An acoustically sealed, stable enclosure with a consistent volume is in direct opposition to an enclosure with built in flux for panel movement. The built in flux is necessary for longevity if you are using solid wood.
You are welcome to try "hunks" or slabs of 1.5" thick solid wood in your design but be ready for gaps at the joints in time.
Some manufacturers (Sonus Faber) have been able to get away with solid wood in their enclosures by using highly dimentionally stable woods, i.e. quarter sawn walnut, but even these manufacturers do not typically use thick walls of solid wood on all 6 sides.
In addition, the best figured woods are typically sent to the veneer mills, so often veneer is your best choice for the prettiest woods. Finally, it is far more environmentally friendly to use a thin veneer of an exotic wood on a lesser substrate than to use a whole "hunk" of that precious wood.
I am biased towards MDF or baltic birch plywood covered by veneer for my speakers and with good reason. To me, the "solid wood 1.5 inch thick baffles" always scream amateur. Who said, "anyone with a table saw can build a pair of speakers, and most do."
Good luck, and be sure you've read Vance Dickason's book.
You are welcome to try "hunks" or slabs of 1.5" thick solid wood in your design but be ready for gaps at the joints in time.
Some manufacturers (Sonus Faber) have been able to get away with solid wood in their enclosures by using highly dimentionally stable woods, i.e. quarter sawn walnut, but even these manufacturers do not typically use thick walls of solid wood on all 6 sides.
In addition, the best figured woods are typically sent to the veneer mills, so often veneer is your best choice for the prettiest woods. Finally, it is far more environmentally friendly to use a thin veneer of an exotic wood on a lesser substrate than to use a whole "hunk" of that precious wood.
I am biased towards MDF or baltic birch plywood covered by veneer for my speakers and with good reason. To me, the "solid wood 1.5 inch thick baffles" always scream amateur. Who said, "anyone with a table saw can build a pair of speakers, and most do."
Good luck, and be sure you've read Vance Dickason's book.
polvoson posted:
Mdf, in relation to a solid wood is rather inert: I mean dimensionally stable. With the mdf on the inside of your cabinet it is less exposed to ambient moisture changes. The suseptibility to movement of 1.5" of solid wood (due to seasonal moisture changes) will (I think) overcome the stability offerred by 3/4" mdf. This could lead to glue joint failure.
A more reasonable approach, one that I have had success with, is to use a thinner layer of select wood to overlay the mdf. I have used up to 1/2" over 1 " of mdf, more at the corners. This, I think, shifts the balance for stability more towards the mdf.
I would have concerns for this construction & I'd like to offer them to you.
Mdf, in relation to a solid wood is rather inert: I mean dimensionally stable. With the mdf on the inside of your cabinet it is less exposed to ambient moisture changes. The suseptibility to movement of 1.5" of solid wood (due to seasonal moisture changes) will (I think) overcome the stability offerred by 3/4" mdf. This could lead to glue joint failure.
A more reasonable approach, one that I have had success with, is to use a thinner layer of select wood to overlay the mdf. I have used up to 1/2" over 1 " of mdf, more at the corners. This, I think, shifts the balance for stability more towards the mdf.
MDF will offer stability/reliability over solid timber, however I don't like the sound of MDF when it resonates.
All wood will resonate and you have two basic choices. Either you accept it and build out of something that sounds good when it resonates, or you brace (etc) until the resonances are quiet.
To saitsfy this compromise between stability, good sounding resonance and relative freedom from resonance, I choose to use plywood with bracing.
I have to say that your idea is intriguing. It almost sounds like it will be successful. I have often used real wood veneer to make beautiful cabinets, and find plywood to be even easier.
Good luck.
All wood will resonate and you have two basic choices. Either you accept it and build out of something that sounds good when it resonates, or you brace (etc) until the resonances are quiet.
To saitsfy this compromise between stability, good sounding resonance and relative freedom from resonance, I choose to use plywood with bracing.
I have to say that your idea is intriguing. It almost sounds like it will be successful. I have often used real wood veneer to make beautiful cabinets, and find plywood to be even easier.
Good luck.
NickC said:
I'm currently working on a design for a small "mini-monitor" - about 36 litres, fitted with original components and filter from the Tannoy Stratford speaker. The woofer is a 6.75" driver and the tweeter is a 0.5" horn. It is a ported design, with the port firing forwards. The original Stratford is tuned to 50Hz, in my room there is a conciderable boost around that frequency. Simulations show a similar bump at aroud 45 Hz. My goal in designing a new cabinet is to tame that bump and to enlarge the bass response downwards. Maybe tune to somewhere close to 36 Hz. That means deep bass, so I would need to use MDF.
The tweeter is a very lovely horn - fast, transparent. To keep it's quality, I'd have to use plywood.
Would it be possible to make the cabinet out of 22mm MDF and the baffle out of 22mm + 8mm Plywood screwed and glued together? That way I have the qualities of both Plywood and MDF. I want to heavily dampen the inside by glueing bitumen (carpet tiles) on all inner walls, and stuffing it with fiberglass. Also, I've seen monitors with felt fitted on the baffle to minimize diffraction. I'm not sure if I'll use that, too. I plan to brace the cabinet internally.
Any ideas? Any input is welcome. Thanks!
Oh, and by the way: I've only recently taken a serious interest in speaker building. I'm still quite a noob, but I want to learn. Please feel free to include as much info as possible 🙂
Attachments
Jamesblond said:
I have used lead to line cabinets, tacking it in places with glue (not just any glue). The lead really goes to work on resonances. It has done well to tame those I couldn't fix with bracing...
NickC said:
...but after doing so, I seemed to miss the resonance. The speakers seemed somehow dead. No problem. Revoicing, or adjusting the crossover to change the tone slightly has brought satisfaction back.
As a wood worker I'm sure you're familiar with Veneer. You can get some beautiful veneers to cover that MDF with and still not disturb the glue joint integrity as the expansion and contraction of veneer should not equal what a 1.5" piece of hardwood will have.
RDV
RDV
No excuses for not searching! 😉polvoson said:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21398&highlight=
Speaking as a non speaker builder, I would think just about any material will work. Some are just harder to work with than others. Not only is wood difficult to work with, finding a craftsman that can work with it might be even harder.
Where I live they were going to renovate an old building. It's a huge, historical building. No construction worker could do it. As I posted in another thread, practical knowledge has little value nowadays.
Shindo Latour
Where I live they were going to renovate an old building. It's a huge, historical building. No construction worker could do it. As I posted in another thread, practical knowledge has little value nowadays.
Shindo Latour
Thank you for all the replies guys. Vikash thanks for that link, I have been reading that thred for the last hour and a half.
I didn' realize this was such a contested topic...
I didn' realize this was such a contested topic...
orthoefer said:
There's an exception to this....
Solid wood 1.5 inch front baffles work wonderfully if you are making an open baffle type speaker(Linkwitz Orion/Phoenix). Saves time veneering with a lovely grain that wraps around.
Are there any MDF brands that are a bit safer to work with? I heard that many MDF's have high formaldehyde content.
Daveis said:
Urea/formaldehyde is a part of the manufacturing process. Even plain particle board is considered slightly hazardous to work with, and solid timber will give your lungs a hard time if you get enough dust. I think you just need to provide the ventilation and dust extraction needed, or even make your cuts outside.
Have you considered concrete? 😀
Ever so slightly off-topic, but does anyone know whether wood changes its expansion/contraction when you're using older woods? For example, old sleepers that have been pulled up to be replaced by concrete versions, or an old bridge being taken down to be replaced by a metal/tarmac span.
You can get smaller '100 year-old' oak skirting boards here in Australia by checking out any old houses that are being demolished and contacting the people doing the job - but larger peices are harder to find (although possible).
You can get smaller '100 year-old' oak skirting boards here in Australia by checking out any old houses that are being demolished and contacting the people doing the job - but larger peices are harder to find (although possible).
Wood retains it's shrink/swell thing. Old sailing ships still need to be bailed like hell after drydock until the wood swells. Old doors still stick when the humdity climbs...
🙂
🙂
If you have ever cut old timber and inhaled the dust you might sense it's consistency is different to that of newer timber (could the petrification process begin this early?). Old stock is fairly immune to common warping as it is seasoned. Back in the day, they used to use seasoning/waterproofing chemicals that we might not touch now. There's creosote and probably some I have never heard of. Bridge components? Probably been waterproofed, I think they used to soak these things in diesel oil or similar like they do with telegraph poles. BTW, hardwood is not porous like softwood and so is recommended for use outside, and makes longstanding houses.
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