Esteemed Ladies & Gentlemen,
I am a bit new to this forum, but I have been very impressed by the level of expertise that it displays. I am setting out on building three-way full range studio monitors to be used in a record mixing and mastering facility. From reading many of your discussions I have narrowed it down to the following components:
Bass: 15" Lamda TD-15 H -- 30 Hz - 450Hz
Midrange: ATC SM75-150 S dome or PHL 1120, 1660 or even 1220 6.5inch. --- 450Hz - 3.5 or 4 kHz
Tweeter: Raven R-1 4KHz and above
The XO frequencies were chosen to keep the midrange dedicated to the entire vocal range. I tend towards active XO with the new Behringer Ultracurve Pro (DCX 2496), or High/Mids passive + Bass active. Probably ported bass, sealed Mid/Highs.
Has anyone tried this combination? Truthfully, I know the ATCs very well and have always been impressed by the midrange. There is a $$$ issue, however, and sending stuff from Europe to the US can become costly. This is one of the reasons that I did not consider ATC woofers, or the VOLTs. I could also imagine that there are good softdome tweeters that will work with this combination. I chose the Raven for its efficiency and linearity. Remember: I will be sitting still in ONE place for my work. Sweet spot width is NOT decisive. Any suggestions towards affordable amplifiers for this combination is also appreciated.
Thank you for any recommendations and/or advice.
Kind Regards
I am a bit new to this forum, but I have been very impressed by the level of expertise that it displays. I am setting out on building three-way full range studio monitors to be used in a record mixing and mastering facility. From reading many of your discussions I have narrowed it down to the following components:
Bass: 15" Lamda TD-15 H -- 30 Hz - 450Hz
Midrange: ATC SM75-150 S dome or PHL 1120, 1660 or even 1220 6.5inch. --- 450Hz - 3.5 or 4 kHz
Tweeter: Raven R-1 4KHz and above
The XO frequencies were chosen to keep the midrange dedicated to the entire vocal range. I tend towards active XO with the new Behringer Ultracurve Pro (DCX 2496), or High/Mids passive + Bass active. Probably ported bass, sealed Mid/Highs.
Has anyone tried this combination? Truthfully, I know the ATCs very well and have always been impressed by the midrange. There is a $$$ issue, however, and sending stuff from Europe to the US can become costly. This is one of the reasons that I did not consider ATC woofers, or the VOLTs. I could also imagine that there are good softdome tweeters that will work with this combination. I chose the Raven for its efficiency and linearity. Remember: I will be sitting still in ONE place for my work. Sweet spot width is NOT decisive. Any suggestions towards affordable amplifiers for this combination is also appreciated.
Thank you for any recommendations and/or advice.
Kind Regards
It sounds like a nice project. You seem to be headed in a good direction. One item is that the human vocal range goes down below 200Hz.
Thank you, Rodd. Not the "vocals" I am speaking of.... 😀
I know you have some experience with the 80s JBL drivers. I have a pair of 4430s sitting around. I am wondering whether there is any point in using some of the components, perhaps adding the aluminum Radian diaphragms to the horns etc.
Cheers
I know you have some experience with the 80s JBL drivers. I have a pair of 4430s sitting around. I am wondering whether there is any point in using some of the components, perhaps adding the aluminum Radian diaphragms to the horns etc.
Cheers
Hi RB,
The 4430's are an excellent starting point. I always thought that 1250Hz was too high for the 15" woofer. They would be real nice with a 10" mid-bass in the the middle (or better yet, a pair of 10"). Then maybe a 2404 or 2405 on top above 10kHz.
I almost had a pair of 2344's to play with, but didn't have the time to diddle. They went to cyclotronguy at Pass Labs instead and he did some diddling since he is a professional diddlier. He said he thought the vertical dispersion was too broad and that the sound tended to defract and scatter around the edges of the baby cheeks. I thought that could be tweaked with a little bit of effort. I don't know if he followed through on that or not. I'll have to ask him one day. He was using TAD 2001 drivers, but I'll bet the JBLs with Radian diaphragms would sound decent. You could even stick the ribbon on top of the 2344's and you probably wouldn't need a lo-pass for the horns, just a hi-pass for the ribbons.
So,... Turn the 4430 into a pair of subs, get 4 - 10" woofers and use them, 2 per side from 80Hz to 1.2kHz. Above that in the same box, mount the 2344's and the ribbons above that with just a 12db/oct hi-pass @ 12kHz for a xover. Put some thick foam along the side of the baby cheeks and maybe a strip of foam along the top and bottom surface inside the horn. Of course, you would have to at least bi-amp, and tri-amp would be better still. Then you would be ready for some serious sounds.
The 4430's are an excellent starting point. I always thought that 1250Hz was too high for the 15" woofer. They would be real nice with a 10" mid-bass in the the middle (or better yet, a pair of 10"). Then maybe a 2404 or 2405 on top above 10kHz.
I almost had a pair of 2344's to play with, but didn't have the time to diddle. They went to cyclotronguy at Pass Labs instead and he did some diddling since he is a professional diddlier. He said he thought the vertical dispersion was too broad and that the sound tended to defract and scatter around the edges of the baby cheeks. I thought that could be tweaked with a little bit of effort. I don't know if he followed through on that or not. I'll have to ask him one day. He was using TAD 2001 drivers, but I'll bet the JBLs with Radian diaphragms would sound decent. You could even stick the ribbon on top of the 2344's and you probably wouldn't need a lo-pass for the horns, just a hi-pass for the ribbons.
So,... Turn the 4430 into a pair of subs, get 4 - 10" woofers and use them, 2 per side from 80Hz to 1.2kHz. Above that in the same box, mount the 2344's and the ribbons above that with just a 12db/oct hi-pass @ 12kHz for a xover. Put some thick foam along the side of the baby cheeks and maybe a strip of foam along the top and bottom surface inside the horn. Of course, you would have to at least bi-amp, and tri-amp would be better still. Then you would be ready for some serious sounds.
Excellent advice, Rodd. Thank you. Now, did you have a specific 10' in mind? It occurred to me that perhaps one only of the high efficient PHL drivers would suit this idea quite well. The driver would fit into the existing opening of the JBL Bi-Radial Horn. The Horn could then be mounted in a stand-alone enclosure to take care of the diffraction effects that you mentioned. The ribbon tweeter might even be situated then between the horn and the Bass enclosure. What do you think?
Cheers
Cheers
I'm using two JBL LE10A's for mid-basses. I had always felt them to be a little sluggish and compressed. Then I went to a 6db/oct PLLxover and they came to life more so then I've ever heard them. The PHL's look they could be a real nice fit for the horn top end. BTW, it's what is used in the Pass Labs Rushmore (at least a version of them).RussianBlue said:
Your configuration sounds like it could be a nice combination. I was going to mention before to see what you can do to get a little more extention from the 2235's into the bass region. Right now they're tuned to 35Hz, which isn't bad, but I'd bet you could get into the 20's without too much trouble.
Maybe Macka will chime in as he has had some direct experience with all of the JBL stuff we're talking about.
I'm using a DCX 2496 - it's greatest strength is the ability to mix and match crossover points, slopes, types - so when you assemble your system you can tune it to what works best -
you can also adjust the Behringer for differences in efficiency within reason - I have read that if you max the settings you lose too much quality
I have never heard the Raven - and heard very few ribbons - the ones I have heard did not impress me as much as they seem to impress others - possibly because of my hearing loss above 7k - Whatever tweeter you use, you want to be sure you have heard it and prefer it
While my thinking is not oriented towards nearfield, I would think you would want to ensure that you have matched dispersion characteristics well, particularly for intended crossover regions.
Well, I've seen some new Crown amps on E-bay pretty reasonable - fully active, you don't need nearly as much power - you could probably get three of them for around a grand -
Or possibly a new or used ATI 6 channel or similar
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the benefits of being fully active with one amp per driver - That really should be a major move toward increasing the quality and clarity of the overall sound -
Regards
Ken L
Re: Re: Mastering Quality 3-way Monitors
Ken is certianly right about the benefits of an amp per speaker. The power required for each frequency range will depend on the efficiency of the speaker. The bass is easy, get as much power (current delivered to the speaker) as your money can pay for. The mid-bass can be difficult. This is where all the fundamental frequencies are plus you have to try and match the charcater of direct radiating mid-bass to that of the horn on top. Add the that the efficiency difference and you need to find a hi-powered, very dynamic amp that you muct direct couple to the driver if you're going to get the full benefit of the amp/speaker combination. All this without sounding harsh ("SS sound") in the critical voice range. I currently use a Bryston4b that does quite well. The good thing is that are quite a few very good SS amps that can meet these requirements. The bad thing is, the vast majority of them don't come cheap. I'm waiting for some of our members to finish back engineering the Pass X amps, and then, maybe, I'll more the Bryston to the subs.
I've used the old Crown D100 amp for sub power before, but they tended to be a bit harsh for the horns. The best "Bang-for-the-Buck" SS amps I've found for the horns are the NAD's. Until my Aleph5+ is finished I'm using a NAD PE2100 with 50wpc. There are better sounding SS amps for hors out there, but not at the price. You can routinely find these on eBay for between $200 and $300.Ken L said:
Ken is certianly right about the benefits of an amp per speaker. The power required for each frequency range will depend on the efficiency of the speaker. The bass is easy, get as much power (current delivered to the speaker) as your money can pay for. The mid-bass can be difficult. This is where all the fundamental frequencies are plus you have to try and match the charcater of direct radiating mid-bass to that of the horn on top. Add the that the efficiency difference and you need to find a hi-powered, very dynamic amp that you muct direct couple to the driver if you're going to get the full benefit of the amp/speaker combination. All this without sounding harsh ("SS sound") in the critical voice range. I currently use a Bryston4b that does quite well. The good thing is that are quite a few very good SS amps that can meet these requirements. The bad thing is, the vast majority of them don't come cheap. I'm waiting for some of our members to finish back engineering the Pass X amps, and then, maybe, I'll more the Bryston to the subs.
Thank you for your replies everyone.
Let's see, some of the amps I have hanging around here:
Bryston 4B ST
Mackie 1400i
QSC MX 700
Panasonic Ramsa 9055
Some Crests,
Crown DC 300, 150s and 75s
Some of these could be "improved" I am sure. I am very interested in DIY improvements.
Rodd,
i am concerned about the uneveness of the JBL driver/horn combination. Replacing the diaphragm and adding two 10' will run as much as simply replacing the horn/driver with a different combination such as the SA ribbon, or the ATC midrange mentioned. Do you think that the JBL driver/horn has "it" ? I must admit that I was very fond of the newer JBL DMS-1s (two 15' + horn/driver), but the 4430s always sounded just a bit awkward to me. Are you convinced that the uneveness (looks like some big bumps in the 2K range) can be worked out without external equalization? I am not a big fan of studio monitor equalization - usual it comes at a price (impulse response behavior).
BTW, some of the best systems I have heard use the Crown Studio Reference I for the "bottom" and the Brystons for the top end. The Brystons don't put out quite enough for professional applications (ie. deaf rock musicians/producers/high SPL - low distortions).
Many greetings
Let's see, some of the amps I have hanging around here:
Bryston 4B ST
Mackie 1400i
QSC MX 700
Panasonic Ramsa 9055
Some Crests,
Crown DC 300, 150s and 75s
Some of these could be "improved" I am sure. I am very interested in DIY improvements.
Rodd,
i am concerned about the uneveness of the JBL driver/horn combination. Replacing the diaphragm and adding two 10' will run as much as simply replacing the horn/driver with a different combination such as the SA ribbon, or the ATC midrange mentioned. Do you think that the JBL driver/horn has "it" ? I must admit that I was very fond of the newer JBL DMS-1s (two 15' + horn/driver), but the 4430s always sounded just a bit awkward to me. Are you convinced that the uneveness (looks like some big bumps in the 2K range) can be worked out without external equalization? I am not a big fan of studio monitor equalization - usual it comes at a price (impulse response behavior).
BTW, some of the best systems I have heard use the Crown Studio Reference I for the "bottom" and the Brystons for the top end. The Brystons don't put out quite enough for professional applications (ie. deaf rock musicians/producers/high SPL - low distortions).
Many greetings
It looks like you have the bottom end covered pretty well. My first experience with horns was at an audio store that rented pro equipment. They had a rack full of Crown amps and a 4-way JBL system similar to the old 4350's but with the 2390 horn (w/serpentine lens). I like the DC300 for the sub. You’ll have to check with the SS guys for the tweaks.RussianBlue said:
I ran an LE10A and LE85 w/HL91 horn/lens for years and there was that “unevenness” you’re speaking of for years. I went to 2 LE10A’s to get a little better lateral dispersion up near 1200Hz and half the excursion to help limit the compression. It helped some but not there yet. I did a lot to tame the horns and generally got rid of most of the bad parts of the “horn sound” without throwing the baby out with the bath water. That also helped a lot with the disparity between the direct radiator and the horn.RussianBlue said:
I’m now using TAD4001 w/McCauley horns. This is so much smoother then the JBL’s. I’d say I’ve came a long way toward closing that difference between the horn and direct radiator. The Bryston and PLLxover helped as well. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t want to lose the benefits of the horns in the mid range. I don’t believe direct radiators, whether they’re cones, ribbons, or electrostats, can do the job as well (it’s the emotion).
I guess I’d agree. I don’t have my Crown any more.RussianBlue said:
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