I have a pair of JM Lab 913. Keep thinking about getting a better pair.
I want to get opinions comparing JM Lab vs Martin Logan panel.
I want to get opinions comparing JM Lab vs Martin Logan panel.
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It is hard to compare. The dispersion pattern of a panel and a point source (drivers) are quite different. Their interaction with the room are different too. The panel is dipolar. You have to listen and then judge yourself.
I remembered years ago in a hifi show, I listened to a pair of ML SL3 in a fairly large room (the speakers were far from the walls). It was magic, the sound was enveloping and float on air.
My brother used to own a pair of the small JM Lab book shelf and it sounded fine too.
Personally I like panel. But the integration of the base driver with the panel is tricky. Speakers with cone drivers tend to do better in this regard. Seriously, you have to listen and decide for yourself.
Hope this help!
Regards,
I'm not too sure you'll get much advice here used or not. Most people here like to build and boast rather than buy and boast 🙂 it seems to me you are comparing totally different animals though. That should come down to what you feel will sound best in your room to your taste. I always had a love hate with elrctrostats but would take them over almost all cones - in my room with my goals. Stats are "fast" and low coloration - addicting if you can put up with the lack of upper scale dynamics, their size and poor off axis response
Is it easy to build a high end speaker? You have to match the speakers, the crossover and making the cabinet. You can't just buy any expensive speakers and put them together. I don't even know where to start.
Open baffle speakers at least make the cabinet building side of things a simple affair.
They sound great too.
They sound great too.
How do you know what woofer match mid range, and what match tweeter? You can't buy and try as the good ones are expensive. You cannot play musical chair.
I look at some JM Lab tweeters, they are $150 each!!! Woofers and mid range are just as expensive. Then how do you design the crossover to match the speakers. Sounds like a lot of try and switch, by the time you match up a complete set, you spent more than an ultra high end speaker pair!!! This is not like designing a power amp that your knowledge and theory matters.
Then you have the cabinet to make. Wood is not cheap by any stretch, you make a nice cherry cabinet, it's going to cost you. The cabinet of a nice speaker is very thick, my speaker must be at least 80 to 100 lbs each. You knock on the side, it's solid. When all things are said and done, you can easily spent $5K+ and I am not sure I can beat my JM Lab.
I look at some JM Lab tweeters, they are $150 each!!! Woofers and mid range are just as expensive. Then how do you design the crossover to match the speakers. Sounds like a lot of try and switch, by the time you match up a complete set, you spent more than an ultra high end speaker pair!!! This is not like designing a power amp that your knowledge and theory matters.
Then you have the cabinet to make. Wood is not cheap by any stretch, you make a nice cherry cabinet, it's going to cost you. The cabinet of a nice speaker is very thick, my speaker must be at least 80 to 100 lbs each. You knock on the side, it's solid. When all things are said and done, you can easily spent $5K+ and I am not sure I can beat my JM Lab.
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If you live close to Lowther USA, ask if you can listen to their OB speakers. Guaranteed result that will challenge high end speakers.
Open Baffles Lowthers
Edit: It can also be done quite a bit cheaper than this example too if your budget doesn't stretch that far.
Open Baffles Lowthers
Edit: It can also be done quite a bit cheaper than this example too if your budget doesn't stretch that far.
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There are numerous builds documented and shared throughout the internet. Parts Express Tech Talk is a good place to start. Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Kits are available through Meniscus audio. DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group
A gentleman by the name of Paul Carmody shares his designs and builds: https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
And the list goes on... All the design work has been done.
I built a pair of Continuums by Jeff Bagby, available on the Meniscus site. I recently stopped in a high end audio store and listened to some Martin Logans and some $70,000 JBLs. I'm not saying my speakers sound as good as those JBLs, but they certainly give the MLs a run for their money. There is a lot to be said for DIY speakers, especially those designed by a knowledgeable designer.
Mike
Kits are available through Meniscus audio. DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group
A gentleman by the name of Paul Carmody shares his designs and builds: https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
And the list goes on... All the design work has been done.
I built a pair of Continuums by Jeff Bagby, available on the Meniscus site. I recently stopped in a high end audio store and listened to some Martin Logans and some $70,000 JBLs. I'm not saying my speakers sound as good as those JBLs, but they certainly give the MLs a run for their money. There is a lot to be said for DIY speakers, especially those designed by a knowledgeable designer.
Mike
Small vignette;
Recent lecture by Dr F Toole.. Where he, in digression, described a High tech looking speaker consisting of a curved panel upper with a bass aid driver below..(not mentioning a Brand name.. but you can) being one of the Worst Speakers he's ever tested/analyzed. Measured frequency/spl responses like a mountain range.
Noting that this Man pioneered Speaker analysis techinques.. he knows his 'stuff'.
Something about Sales pitches for Panels pushing the design for it's massless instant responses.. vs Old School cones.. whereas he said that Cone drivers measure as faster and more precise... than film electro panels.. Ain't advertising Grand?
(spare me.. talk to Dr Toole)
That said. A friend has a setup with 3 pairs of MLs' and several subs.. The sounds are spectacular.. But then I've only ever heard his setup at Concert volumes.. Never at normal levels.
Next visit I'll ask.. but then according to his Wife, he hasn't entered that Audio room setup in well over a Year .
Recent lecture by Dr F Toole.. Where he, in digression, described a High tech looking speaker consisting of a curved panel upper with a bass aid driver below..(not mentioning a Brand name.. but you can) being one of the Worst Speakers he's ever tested/analyzed. Measured frequency/spl responses like a mountain range.
Noting that this Man pioneered Speaker analysis techinques.. he knows his 'stuff'.
Something about Sales pitches for Panels pushing the design for it's massless instant responses.. vs Old School cones.. whereas he said that Cone drivers measure as faster and more precise... than film electro panels.. Ain't advertising Grand?
(spare me.. talk to Dr Toole)
That said. A friend has a setup with 3 pairs of MLs' and several subs.. The sounds are spectacular.. But then I've only ever heard his setup at Concert volumes.. Never at normal levels.
Next visit I'll ask.. but then according to his Wife, he hasn't entered that Audio room setup in well over a Year .
Well, most system sounds a lot better when cranked up. A superb system is one that sounds very good when in low volume. That's where the high end stuff shines.
If I upgrade, it would have to be like the JM Lab Utopia or equivalent. You really think people can build speaker one up the Utopia? Problem of home build also you don't know how it sounds until you build it. By then, it's too late, if you don't like it, you still own it. Might end up wasting more money than buy used.
If I upgrade, it would have to be like the JM Lab Utopia or equivalent. You really think people can build speaker one up the Utopia? Problem of home build also you don't know how it sounds until you build it. By then, it's too late, if you don't like it, you still own it. Might end up wasting more money than buy used.
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I haven't heard Utopias so can't say for a fact yes or no.
However I have heard a few diy speakers that sound better than anything coming out of big name factories.
If you like vented cabinet style speakers check out Lynn Olson's, Beyond the Ariel speaker.
I prefer Open Baffle speakers check out Lowther USA open baffles.
However I have heard a few diy speakers that sound better than anything coming out of big name factories.
If you like vented cabinet style speakers check out Lynn Olson's, Beyond the Ariel speaker.
I prefer Open Baffle speakers check out Lowther USA open baffles.
Start with Selah Audio. Rick designed and provided all the parts for an exceptional set of line arrays. I just had to build my own cabinets.
Here's his website,
Selah Audio
Regards,
Dan 🙂
My first DIY floorstanding loudspeakers were more than that (in the days when 4 by 8 MDF was a custom order item)
Building speakers doesn't have to be that difficult. You can get high end sound very easily if you go active.
Using a behringer dcx you can easily customize driver integration with out all the real challenges.
The real challenges are making a speaker have an 8 ohm load, matching sensitivities between drivers, integrating them with proper filter slopes (which have time shifting characteristics), making the driver units in phase. Having low end punch and extension while maintaining all of this is an extra challenge when you add so many drivers!
It is almost pointless to design a passive speaker. Just don't!
Get an active crossover and experiment.
Using a behringer dcx you can easily customize driver integration with out all the real challenges.
The real challenges are making a speaker have an 8 ohm load, matching sensitivities between drivers, integrating them with proper filter slopes (which have time shifting characteristics), making the driver units in phase. Having low end punch and extension while maintaining all of this is an extra challenge when you add so many drivers!
It is almost pointless to design a passive speaker. Just don't!
Get an active crossover and experiment.
Newform research also sound like electrostats, but they are unipolar . They are also cheap because they are direct marketed and don't have big brand recognition.
I have utopia system and a newform system. I like both they are just different.
The new forms don't sound their best until they have been equalized via DEQ 2496. The power handling of these allow you to EQ them very intensely without any strain.
I have utopia system and a newform system. I like both they are just different.
The new forms don't sound their best until they have been equalized via DEQ 2496. The power handling of these allow you to EQ them very intensely without any strain.
I am building a speaker like the grand utopia right now, all in cost me about $2500
and even has extra woofers ......
yes its cheap cabinets that are ugly, but its dynamics, and similar sound quality to grand utopia for $2500?
It may even turn out better in ways because its all active. See my thread on here if your interested.
and even has extra woofers ......
yes its cheap cabinets that are ugly, but its dynamics, and similar sound quality to grand utopia for $2500?
It may even turn out better in ways because its all active. See my thread on here if your interested.
Why not make some electro stats? And put some nice W series focal woofers with them?
Focal drivers mate amazing with planar/stats . Obiously they are very quick drivers, and almost a match made in heaven.
I mated Focal W series mids to my new forms and it is very dynamic and real. The problem with the dipole is that you will have increased diffraction with decreasing frequency. This is what causes stats to sound thin and bright. The cancelation from front and back wave reduces output in the lower midrange. Then you have phase minimum destructive interference from reflections from the front and back of the panel. You cannot equalize phase minimum points. So you are stuck with it. These new forms are monopole. The radiating surface is also extremely narrow. No beaming like an electrostatic.
Back when electra 915 was in the dealer I purchased them over similar priced electrostats after months of listening. I have been through many speakers since, but interestingly I came back full circle to the W series cones. They just have an immediacy that I have not found in any other mid range driver.
Mated with an electrostatic, or better yet a ribbon they are hard to beat.
Focal drivers mate amazing with planar/stats . Obiously they are very quick drivers, and almost a match made in heaven.
I mated Focal W series mids to my new forms and it is very dynamic and real. The problem with the dipole is that you will have increased diffraction with decreasing frequency. This is what causes stats to sound thin and bright. The cancelation from front and back wave reduces output in the lower midrange. Then you have phase minimum destructive interference from reflections from the front and back of the panel. You cannot equalize phase minimum points. So you are stuck with it. These new forms are monopole. The radiating surface is also extremely narrow. No beaming like an electrostatic.
Back when electra 915 was in the dealer I purchased them over similar priced electrostats after months of listening. I have been through many speakers since, but interestingly I came back full circle to the W series cones. They just have an immediacy that I have not found in any other mid range driver.
Mated with an electrostatic, or better yet a ribbon they are hard to beat.
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