Following on form the thread below:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/354691-surprised-tangband-w3-fr-future.html
I ordered a set of the markaudio drivers and built up a set of cabs based largely around this design:
Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 Compact Bass Reflex Speaker Build | Mister Wireless
My own version has the same volume, similar dimensions (give or take 1cm based on MDF I already had cut), offset placement of drivers and a 50mm port tuned to ~45Hz.
Built up and speakers mounted, no finish applied yet and no internal damping materials.
I'm using them with a velodyne microvee sub and its ~100Hz internal xover to roll the bass off of the 10m3s.
How do they sound? Not too shabby.
There are comments that the driver has pronounced energy in the 5-7kHz range and some people use a simple LRC notch to attenuate this. Certainly, vocals can be overly sibilant and, to my ears, they get a bit fatiguing when turned up.
Measurement suggests that this is not so much a bump at 5-7kHz as it is cone break up causing exaggerated energy around this frequency range (you see a comb like series of peaks and troughs between 5kHz and 7kHz). I tried an active filter with a 0.7Q notch @ ~6kHz and this does reduce sibilance but also reduces desirable content in this frequency range. I'm hoping that a bit of internal damping material will help here and reduce the need for the notch filter.
Nothing like throwing additional complexity at a problem though so I looped in my minidsp DDRC24 and ran the Dirac Live 2.0 room correction software. This did an incredible job of smoothing out the high mids without sacrificing detail. It can still get a bit fatiguing when cranked up but, as I say, maybe internal damping material and a bit more burn in will help.
To really balance them out though I needed to give a wee bit of boost above 12kHz and a bit of baffle step compensation from ~200Hz down.
With miniDSP I have to say they are now fairly incredible. I was lucky enough to have mdf, ports and terminals left over from an old build so only needed to buy the drivers (£110 on eBay). For the cash they are an absolute steal.
My previous speakers are a set of ATC SCM11s which I'd previously thought to be untouchable. However, the vocals coming out of these wee FR drivers surpass the ATCs easily. All told, If I had to choose one set of speakers (and I might), I think the Markaudios might have it.
Surprised and delighted by the results.
Should I find time this week, I'll add some internal damping material and see what effect that has. Will report back.
Cheers,
iep
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/354691-surprised-tangband-w3-fr-future.html
I ordered a set of the markaudio drivers and built up a set of cabs based largely around this design:
Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 Compact Bass Reflex Speaker Build | Mister Wireless
My own version has the same volume, similar dimensions (give or take 1cm based on MDF I already had cut), offset placement of drivers and a 50mm port tuned to ~45Hz.
Built up and speakers mounted, no finish applied yet and no internal damping materials.
I'm using them with a velodyne microvee sub and its ~100Hz internal xover to roll the bass off of the 10m3s.
How do they sound? Not too shabby.
There are comments that the driver has pronounced energy in the 5-7kHz range and some people use a simple LRC notch to attenuate this. Certainly, vocals can be overly sibilant and, to my ears, they get a bit fatiguing when turned up.
Measurement suggests that this is not so much a bump at 5-7kHz as it is cone break up causing exaggerated energy around this frequency range (you see a comb like series of peaks and troughs between 5kHz and 7kHz). I tried an active filter with a 0.7Q notch @ ~6kHz and this does reduce sibilance but also reduces desirable content in this frequency range. I'm hoping that a bit of internal damping material will help here and reduce the need for the notch filter.
Nothing like throwing additional complexity at a problem though so I looped in my minidsp DDRC24 and ran the Dirac Live 2.0 room correction software. This did an incredible job of smoothing out the high mids without sacrificing detail. It can still get a bit fatiguing when cranked up but, as I say, maybe internal damping material and a bit more burn in will help.
To really balance them out though I needed to give a wee bit of boost above 12kHz and a bit of baffle step compensation from ~200Hz down.
With miniDSP I have to say they are now fairly incredible. I was lucky enough to have mdf, ports and terminals left over from an old build so only needed to buy the drivers (£110 on eBay). For the cash they are an absolute steal.
My previous speakers are a set of ATC SCM11s which I'd previously thought to be untouchable. However, the vocals coming out of these wee FR drivers surpass the ATCs easily. All told, If I had to choose one set of speakers (and I might), I think the Markaudios might have it.
Surprised and delighted by the results.
Should I find time this week, I'll add some internal damping material and see what effect that has. Will report back.
Cheers,
iep
These guys need 50-100hrs to run in, night and day difference.
Also sticking them in bigger Pensil style boxes really helps...
The A7's are my fav'. I still need to plug newer Pluvia 7.2HD's to see how they compare.
Also sticking them in bigger Pensil style boxes really helps...
The A7's are my fav'. I still need to plug newer Pluvia 7.2HD's to see how they compare.
I second the vote for Pensils - a simple build, less floor space than a rear mouth BLH such as Frugals or Woden Olson style manifolds.
Ahhh, but the cabs are already built (plus, I had limited MDF). Out of curiosity, what do the pensils add? I'm guessing the improvements would mainly/only be in the bass response?
Ohh, and one other deviation from the posted design that I forgot to mention. I placed the port in the top of the cab rather than the bottom. I generally do this with stand mounters. Not sure why it's so unusual.
Cheers,
iep
Ohh, and one other deviation from the posted design that I forgot to mention. I placed the port in the top of the cab rather than the bottom. I generally do this with stand mounters. Not sure why it's so unusual.
Cheers,
iep
Dust ingress, usually, and the fact that it doesn't really offer anything other than being different. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Re the pensils -depends. The LF alignment is different; they'll go lower but it's also the shape & nature of the response; they're an acoustically efficient load, but also a TL variant, so the significant quantities of internal damping flatten the impedance and also tend to attenuate much of the backwave, so there is relatively little chance of any unwanted modulation.
Re the pensils -depends. The LF alignment is different; they'll go lower but it's also the shape & nature of the response; they're an acoustically efficient load, but also a TL variant, so the significant quantities of internal damping flatten the impedance and also tend to attenuate much of the backwave, so there is relatively little chance of any unwanted modulation.
I think top porting does offer some practical benefit (to be offset against the dust issue 🙂 ).
Rear Port - Placement against wall can be problematic
Front Port - Port harmonics can interfere with midband
Bottom Port - Neat for floor standers (Proac) but less practical for stand mount
Top Port - Not too bad when speaker is close to a wall, doesn't 'aim' the port harmonics at the listener
Side Port - Too weird for me, plus width of cab limits simple port length
I've also made the rear panel of the cab removable (for dusting 🙂 )
Interesting points on the Pensils, thanks. They're a nice looking design but I'd never have had the space.
Just need to find a bit of time to sort out internal damping on my standmounters.
Cheers,
iep
Rear Port - Placement against wall can be problematic
Front Port - Port harmonics can interfere with midband
Bottom Port - Neat for floor standers (Proac) but less practical for stand mount
Top Port - Not too bad when speaker is close to a wall, doesn't 'aim' the port harmonics at the listener
Side Port - Too weird for me, plus width of cab limits simple port length
I've also made the rear panel of the cab removable (for dusting 🙂 )
Interesting points on the Pensils, thanks. They're a nice looking design but I'd never have had the space.
Just need to find a bit of time to sort out internal damping on my standmounters.
Cheers,
iep
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Well, it's valid so it is. That said, from my design perspective (which is only that)
Typically means poor design / acoustic alignment choices have been made.
Should not be an issue in a quality design. If they are, it needs rethinking.
Any many others. Yes, down-firing is or can be advantageous for floorstanders; less so for standmounts without careful consideration for the stand etc. If the latter is designed with the speaker, potentially could be exploited, but that's rarely the case.
Quite so re the former. See above re the latter. 😉
Matter of taste -some value for wide baffle designs however.
Typically means poor design / acoustic alignment choices have been made.
Should not be an issue in a quality design. If they are, it needs rethinking.
Any many others. Yes, down-firing is or can be advantageous for floorstanders; less so for standmounts without careful consideration for the stand etc. If the latter is designed with the speaker, potentially could be exploited, but that's rarely the case.
Quite so re the former. See above re the latter. 😉
Matter of taste -some value for wide baffle designs however.