Great work ian like it,talking of all out assaults!!!!!
I may even get some supplies connected tomorrow evening!!
hope i come close .
alan
Hi Alan,
Just a thought but rather than spending many £000's on regs, caps and a clock for a CD63, wouldn't it be beneficial to start with a better/newer platform pound for pound?
Sure, I know this is the '63ki' thread and no doubt many will oppose my thoughts but as the 'heart' of the player, the NPC dac may have been good in it's day (CDp as standard) but ultimately it isn't very good compared to recent advances. It has quite poor linearity, it's noisy, and very sensitive to PSUs. Anything more modern can and will perform better. As will many 'older'-tech players, such as those based on the archetypal multibit TDA1541A dac, or Philips own Bitstream dacs: SAA7321/22/ TDA1547 etc - or indeed many others.
I think (don't quote me on this) I read on this very thread that Brent said he'd advise folk if asked towards the 6003 as a starting point.
I've had work carried out by Brent in the past and I would say he's a top bloke and know's what sounds good and how to achieve it, however, his 63 (from what I've read and heard) is a class above with many many hours re-worked not only in 'swappable' components but in new 'fresh' topology. I think it would be unfair to assume that this level is attainable from simply swapping to 'boutique' components.
I own a 6003 and with little low cost mods in relevant areas it's made quite a noticeable improvement and I'm happy.... for now
Anyhow, as I said, no offence intended... just an outsiders view.
Again, with 150€ including player, I have several top regs, the CFP DOS, reclocked things, coax that, rerouted this and many more. Those brand new CDP, wich are more than 150€, are not that good. Parts can be found or made cheap, what he intend to do can be more or far less cheap, but still can be done cheap. I've never heard better, even if never heard anything too expensive.
I understand your response completely, for only 150 euros I'm sure you have a bargain of a player, but as Alan said he's not doing 'cheap' this time round, he has a budget of £1000 for mods (components?) alone..... hence my reasoning to start with a 'better' player pound for pound.
and yes now the GBP is gold compared to soon to be left in dust €...
You're right, as said Nulcear Assault " Stop, wait, think " I've just given for the same point another light.
( strange money, strange guys!
Yep, there's no denying it, the pound is ****.... I just purchased 2 large Kendeil caps direct from Italy including expensive 2 day air freight for less than half what they cost in the UK.
I think NAD has made a very good point.
He could buy a second hand heavyweight and tweak the hell out of it.
I'm thinking CD94 mk 2 - how much are they on E Bay when they come up - £ 300 ?
Imagine the performance with £700 worth of clocks, reg's and all the other stuff fitted ?
There's even a CD17 KI on E Bay in Lincoln at the moment that's had 4 bids and is £ 78 quid with 3 days to go...............17 KI ? Nice @ £1300 new.
Food for thought and also no offence meant
He could buy a second hand heavyweight and tweak the hell out of it.
I'm thinking CD94 mk 2 - how much are they on E Bay when they come up - £ 300 ?
Imagine the performance with £700 worth of clocks, reg's and all the other stuff fitted ?
There's even a CD17 KI on E Bay in Lincoln at the moment that's had 4 bids and is £ 78 quid with 3 days to go...............17 KI ? Nice @ £1300 new.
Food for thought and also no offence meant
Been there, seen it done it, got the t-shirt! Now done back to a 63 cos I couldn't get everything out of the Cd94 I wanted!! Lee'd done the same with a 94 and an cd17 ki and come back to the 63 again. At it's most modded I was running 18 or so decent regs from 5 transformers. An S2 chip, Dem reclock, every part of the system clocked direct. I wrote the tda clocking doc on brents site. I tried various output stages too. I'm now back at the 63! I think the level I'm taking mine to, will be very close to Brents and yes you are right, it's not just about fitting boutique parts at that level!!!
No offence taken but did he really recommend starting with a machine with limitations to what can be modded????!
One of the differences between the 63 and later marantz players is the ability to separately regulate and clock the servo area. It's in a combined chip on later models. There are other reasons the 63 is just about the best for mods too, for example there are no built in opams on the dac meaning you can take full advantage of the DOS. In the a player with a voltage out (most later dacs) there are built in opamps to do the I/V conversion. This means you are stuck with whatever is on the die of the DAC. I've modded 10 or so different players and I'm back at the 63 again!
I think there are various interesting and valid viewpoints here and personally I don't have a strong opinion here. It's just not that simple.
As standard a CD63 is pretty awful, and a CD94 (or the equivalent Philips, Naim, Meridian etc.) is light-years ahead in musicality, bass and tone. The issue is the brick-wall that seems to be reached when highly modified. I think I've hit the wall with my Arcam Alpha (same chip again) as Ian has with his Philips and Lee did with his CD94. For me, this isn't a huge issue because the slightly less detailed and open presentation of the 1541 still suits my ears, system and music perfectly.
So the CD17 or other 1547 players also come into question. These are sensational with quite minor mods. I heard a CD17 that Brent modded once and it had the strongest bass I've ever heard in that work system from what I recall. Another one I thought was a good with not crazy money spent was the Arcam CD73, and then there are the standalone DACs, which also reach a high level easily. These are of course more modern, Brent's prototype included. Ultimately, with these modern chips a question mark stands regarding how far one can go. With the CD63 it has been proven to my, Brent's and Lee's ears (and I trust these guys' ears) that a genuinely top-end level of detail retrieval and bass-weight can be achieved.
I think that's why Alan wants a CD63 to mod. There are, IMO, much better players to spend just a bit of money on to improve. Brent himself will tell you the modern DACs can deliver huge performance for a modest layout, if well-modified. It's just the "brick wall" scenario again, as with the 1541 players and DACs.
This is what I think we're getting at here. Most people will never reach this conclusion themselves as we're talking a stupendous amount of modification to hit a CD player's true potential. Fact is there simply aren't many in existence that have been treated to such extensive mods so it's perhaps hard to argue about what is possible with other players. Maybe a DCS Ring DAC could hit better heights... I know Brent has modded a DCS set-up so perhaps he has his opinions about that. A cheaper Ring DAC player would be an Arcam CD92 IIRC.
Simon
As standard a CD63 is pretty awful, and a CD94 (or the equivalent Philips, Naim, Meridian etc.) is light-years ahead in musicality, bass and tone. The issue is the brick-wall that seems to be reached when highly modified. I think I've hit the wall with my Arcam Alpha (same chip again) as Ian has with his Philips and Lee did with his CD94. For me, this isn't a huge issue because the slightly less detailed and open presentation of the 1541 still suits my ears, system and music perfectly.
So the CD17 or other 1547 players also come into question. These are sensational with quite minor mods. I heard a CD17 that Brent modded once and it had the strongest bass I've ever heard in that work system from what I recall. Another one I thought was a good with not crazy money spent was the Arcam CD73, and then there are the standalone DACs, which also reach a high level easily. These are of course more modern, Brent's prototype included. Ultimately, with these modern chips a question mark stands regarding how far one can go. With the CD63 it has been proven to my, Brent's and Lee's ears (and I trust these guys' ears) that a genuinely top-end level of detail retrieval and bass-weight can be achieved.
I think that's why Alan wants a CD63 to mod. There are, IMO, much better players to spend just a bit of money on to improve. Brent himself will tell you the modern DACs can deliver huge performance for a modest layout, if well-modified. It's just the "brick wall" scenario again, as with the 1541 players and DACs.
This is what I think we're getting at here. Most people will never reach this conclusion themselves as we're talking a stupendous amount of modification to hit a CD player's true potential. Fact is there simply aren't many in existence that have been treated to such extensive mods so it's perhaps hard to argue about what is possible with other players. Maybe a DCS Ring DAC could hit better heights... I know Brent has modded a DCS set-up so perhaps he has his opinions about that. A cheaper Ring DAC player would be an Arcam CD92 IIRC.
Simon
I think if I were to try something else, it would be TDA1547 based. I think there is plenty of scope with the many 5v rails and possibility of bypassing the output opamps
I was very impressed with a VRDS10 (twin 1547's) when I modded one for a pal.