OK, please go easy on me as I'm totally new to all this and know nothing despite several days wading my way through as many threads as I can.
Mark Audio speakers get a lot of love, and some say that full range speakers such as the Pensil and Frugel-Horns can need a little help at the top or bottom of the frequency range.
Some build WAW's but I've not read of anyone doing so with both MAOP 7 and 11's.
Is there a reason aside from the cost? Might the alpair 12pw do a better job, but at the cost of a bigger cabinet?
I have to say that I've yet to hear any FR speakers so this is going purely on what I've read, and I have no technical knowledge at all despite me using terms like WAW and FR.
I like the idea of a WAW floorstander, and don't want to go any bigger than a pensil 11 cabinet (ie 1m max height and no wider then 30cm.
So, any ideas on cabinet choice and is a MAOP double a good or bad place to start? This will, if it goes ahead, be my first build and I'm very keen to make something that I'll keep!
Thanks for any help and suggestions..
Mark Audio speakers get a lot of love, and some say that full range speakers such as the Pensil and Frugel-Horns can need a little help at the top or bottom of the frequency range.
Some build WAW's but I've not read of anyone doing so with both MAOP 7 and 11's.
Is there a reason aside from the cost? Might the alpair 12pw do a better job, but at the cost of a bigger cabinet?
I have to say that I've yet to hear any FR speakers so this is going purely on what I've read, and I have no technical knowledge at all despite me using terms like WAW and FR.
I like the idea of a WAW floorstander, and don't want to go any bigger than a pensil 11 cabinet (ie 1m max height and no wider then 30cm.
So, any ideas on cabinet choice and is a MAOP double a good or bad place to start? This will, if it goes ahead, be my first build and I'm very keen to make something that I'll keep!
Thanks for any help and suggestions..
I've not heard any maop or the a12pw but from my understanding the a12pw is designed to function as a true midbass so I think you'd be best off using that in combination with a maop 7. Plus it'd be way cheaper because with the maop 11 (and 7) you're paying a lot for the manufacturing process. Have you read how they're made? Dave (planet10) has a lot of knowledge and designs using these drivers, so I'm sure he'll chime in with a better answer soon
Here's an example of a FAST or WAW design using one of the smaller Alpair drivers and the Alpair 12PW - cabinet volume is not too dissimilar to that of a Pensil 11 :
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/319102-alpair-7-3en-12pw-waw-build-5.html#post5661201
That build used the Alpair 7.3 as the mid-tweet, and AFAIK that driver has been discontinued; however other wide-band units can be used like the Alpair 7MS or the Alpair 5.3 from the Mark Audio family.
As FRFT has already mentioned, the Alpair 12PW is designed as mid-bass driver and the SD is also larger compared to drivers like the MAOP 11, Pluvia 11 or the Alpair 11MS - so the LF output should be greater. Please note that the MAOP 11 is based on the Pluvia 11 and not the Alpair 11 MS.
With a WAW you will need a passive crossover, PLLXO if you are ok with bi-amping, or can go with active crossover also - Dave should be able to share some ideas. I recently built a WAW speaker that had a dedicated crossover design already in place (different design and not Mark Audio drivers).
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/319102-alpair-7-3en-12pw-waw-build-5.html#post5661201
That build used the Alpair 7.3 as the mid-tweet, and AFAIK that driver has been discontinued; however other wide-band units can be used like the Alpair 7MS or the Alpair 5.3 from the Mark Audio family.
As FRFT has already mentioned, the Alpair 12PW is designed as mid-bass driver and the SD is also larger compared to drivers like the MAOP 11, Pluvia 11 or the Alpair 11MS - so the LF output should be greater. Please note that the MAOP 11 is based on the Pluvia 11 and not the Alpair 11 MS.
With a WAW you will need a passive crossover, PLLXO if you are ok with bi-amping, or can go with active crossover also - Dave should be able to share some ideas. I recently built a WAW speaker that had a dedicated crossover design already in place (different design and not Mark Audio drivers).
Thank you both for your replies - I have indeed read how they are made, so imagine they sound rather wonderful.
I'll contact Dave @Planet-10 to see what he feels, and it's about time I donated given the help I've been getting already !
Crossovers are another thing I know absolutely nothing about (seems to be a bit of a theme there..)
I'll contact Dave @Planet-10 to see what he feels, and it's about time I donated given the help I've been getting already !
Crossovers are another thing I know absolutely nothing about (seems to be a bit of a theme there..)
Dave taught me everything I know, which really isn't very much, but maybe enough to help. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you have any questions.
I'm still enjoying my 7.3/12pw speakers very much. I might order another set of 12pw and build a set of the big MTM. Not because my current speakers don't go low enough, as they are pretty flat into the mid 30s, but because I want to see how more drivers change the mid-bass. Perhaps more/bigger drivers moving more air is more better.
If this is your first try building speakers, I highly recommend getting a design from a knowledgeable person on this board and learning from the build process. After that you can decide if you want to design on your own.
I'm still enjoying my 7.3/12pw speakers very much. I might order another set of 12pw and build a set of the big MTM. Not because my current speakers don't go low enough, as they are pretty flat into the mid 30s, but because I want to see how more drivers change the mid-bass. Perhaps more/bigger drivers moving more air is more better.
If this is your first try building speakers, I highly recommend getting a design from a knowledgeable person on this board and learning from the build process. After that you can decide if you want to design on your own.
Thanks Quattrofish, much appreciated.
This will be my first build, I have pretty limited carpentry skills and no plans to design anything, so expect plans will be got from planet-10 now I've donated.
This forum has so many massive threads, I've currently got about 30 windows open on my laptop with things to read, pages to keep and places to buy from. I still don't understand most of the abbreviations MTM, WAW, FAST, PLLXO etc but am slowly picking a few things up.
I expect I'll stick with Mark Audio drivers for now as there is a UK dealer who seems helpful and may be the guy to cut ply to size for me too !
This will be my first build, I have pretty limited carpentry skills and no plans to design anything, so expect plans will be got from planet-10 now I've donated.
This forum has so many massive threads, I've currently got about 30 windows open on my laptop with things to read, pages to keep and places to buy from. I still don't understand most of the abbreviations MTM, WAW, FAST, PLLXO etc but am slowly picking a few things up.
I expect I'll stick with Mark Audio drivers for now as there is a UK dealer who seems helpful and may be the guy to cut ply to size for me too !
Sounds like a plan.
Here are a few of the abbreviations to get you started:
MTM: mid-tweeter-mid, referring to how the various drivers are laid out vertically on the speaker baffle, from top down. In this case, it is a 12pw (mid) on top, 7.3 below it (tweeter), then another 12pw (mid) underneath. Another example might be TMWW, or tweeter, mid, woofer, woofer for a 3.5 way tower.
However, this is not to be confused with similar abbreviations for some of the various box alignments used, such as ML-TL (mass-loaded transmission line), aperiodic-TL (aperiodic transmission line), etc. Gotta figure that stuff out based on context. You'll get it. 🙂
WAW and FAST are used interchangeably for the kind of speaker we're talking about. I favor WAW, or Woofer-Assisted-Wideband. FAST is Fullrange Assisted Speaker Technology, or something like that. Pick your favorite.
PLLXO is passive line level cross over. This can be used when bi-amplifying speakers, usually a WAW with two extended-range drivers, and it means that the crossover circuit is at line-level, or before the amplifier. Because the voltage is so much lower it allows the use of much smaller (read: cheaper) capacitors to create the crossover. Very Frugalphile. They are usually 1st order crossovers, meaning they attenuate the signal at 6db/octave, hence the need for drivers with a wide range.
You'll find better/more detailed definitions by searching for these acronyms in the forums, but these will at least keep you from getting too confused at first.
Cheers.
Here are a few of the abbreviations to get you started:
MTM: mid-tweeter-mid, referring to how the various drivers are laid out vertically on the speaker baffle, from top down. In this case, it is a 12pw (mid) on top, 7.3 below it (tweeter), then another 12pw (mid) underneath. Another example might be TMWW, or tweeter, mid, woofer, woofer for a 3.5 way tower.
However, this is not to be confused with similar abbreviations for some of the various box alignments used, such as ML-TL (mass-loaded transmission line), aperiodic-TL (aperiodic transmission line), etc. Gotta figure that stuff out based on context. You'll get it. 🙂
WAW and FAST are used interchangeably for the kind of speaker we're talking about. I favor WAW, or Woofer-Assisted-Wideband. FAST is Fullrange Assisted Speaker Technology, or something like that. Pick your favorite.
PLLXO is passive line level cross over. This can be used when bi-amplifying speakers, usually a WAW with two extended-range drivers, and it means that the crossover circuit is at line-level, or before the amplifier. Because the voltage is so much lower it allows the use of much smaller (read: cheaper) capacitors to create the crossover. Very Frugalphile. They are usually 1st order crossovers, meaning they attenuate the signal at 6db/octave, hence the need for drivers with a wide range.
You'll find better/more detailed definitions by searching for these acronyms in the forums, but these will at least keep you from getting too confused at first.
Cheers.
To anwser Steve’s stated question. A7ms/A11ms does not make sense. This is because the smaller driver has more potential to produce bass. And it is a better midTweeter.
One could consider using 5 A7ms, 4 as a helper woofer, 1 as a midTweeter, but for the price of 4 A7ms one could get 1 or 2 (or more) dedicated midBasses.
The A12pw goes notably lower than any other MA driver, in the Woden MLTL it reaches 25 Hz or so, in Quattrofish’s Mar-Kens about 35 Hz. More drivers move more air. 2 or 3 (hard to wore) or 4 A12pw will move a lot of air. This driver does not get as much love as it deserves. A11ms when pushed in something like FHXL hits 35 Hz (maybe), in an optimum reflex box more like 65-75Hz.
dave
One could consider using 5 A7ms, 4 as a helper woofer, 1 as a midTweeter, but for the price of 4 A7ms one could get 1 or 2 (or more) dedicated midBasses.
The A12pw goes notably lower than any other MA driver, in the Woden MLTL it reaches 25 Hz or so, in Quattrofish’s Mar-Kens about 35 Hz. More drivers move more air. 2 or 3 (hard to wore) or 4 A12pw will move a lot of air. This driver does not get as much love as it deserves. A11ms when pushed in something like FHXL hits 35 Hz (maybe), in an optimum reflex box more like 65-75Hz.
dave
@Quattrofish Thank you for that, so much appreciated and so helpful ! Taking the time to help out a beginner is very kind.
@Dave Thank you too. OK, so realistically I should be looking at a pair of Alpair 12pw's with a pair of Alpair 7, or even better MAOP 7's if I can get some. Is there a small cabinet that can house a second pair of A12pw's ?
I am limited in cabinet size as my wife just won't allow them. The Frugalhorn XL is pushing it in both width and height.
Quattrofish - your Mar-Kens are stunning, but they wouldn't be allowed in our sitting room - too wide, plus they look way too complex for me to build with those angled corners, although the idea of two separate boxes could be done. One other thing I've not mentioned is that ideally they should have a front or bottom port, ie not a back port as they can't sit out more than about 12" max from the back wall.
@Dave Thank you too. OK, so realistically I should be looking at a pair of Alpair 12pw's with a pair of Alpair 7, or even better MAOP 7's if I can get some. Is there a small cabinet that can house a second pair of A12pw's ?
I am limited in cabinet size as my wife just won't allow them. The Frugalhorn XL is pushing it in both width and height.
Quattrofish - your Mar-Kens are stunning, but they wouldn't be allowed in our sitting room - too wide, plus they look way too complex for me to build with those angled corners, although the idea of two separate boxes could be done. One other thing I've not mentioned is that ideally they should have a front or bottom port, ie not a back port as they can't sit out more than about 12" max from the back wall.
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Not really Dave.
How much bigger is a A7/A12pw cabinet ?
Is there a basic plan that gives external dimensions freely available
Deeper is no problem, but I guess the speaker determines the width....!
How much bigger is a A7/A12pw cabinet ?
Is there a basic plan that gives external dimensions freely available
Deeper is no problem, but I guess the speaker determines the width....!
Ahh, I think I have found it - is this the one, 'cos if so that looks perfect !
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/att...air-12pw-combination-simple-2way-a7pa12pw-pdf
I could go deeper if that helps in any way, and as long as I can have flat fronts even my wife will be happy !
Can the Alpair 7ms be used instead of the A7p with no problems?
Why did you ask about bi-amping Dave - is a crossover a big problem, or at least does Bi-amping make a big difference ?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/att...air-12pw-combination-simple-2way-a7pa12pw-pdf
I could go deeper if that helps in any way, and as long as I can have flat fronts even my wife will be happy !
Can the Alpair 7ms be used instead of the A7p with no problems?
Why did you ask about bi-amping Dave - is a crossover a big problem, or at least does Bi-amping make a big difference ?
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