Hey gang,
New here. Looking for some guidance I’ve not found anywhere else…
I’m an audio mix engineer. I’m putting together a home theater setup that I’d like to be able to act as a secondary workstation to my studio and am trying to figure out a clever, cost effective way to pull it off. Here’s the deets:
I’m branching into atmos and spatial mixing this year. My studio will have a proper atmos mixing setup. At home, Im putting together a home theater setup with an Oled + atmos capable avr + 7.1.4 speaker setup. Ideally would like this to stand alone without building it around a computer in any way. BUT…I want to find a way to loop my 2019 MacBook Pro (Big Sur) into the setup and mix/monitor on the 7.1.4.
****Important point: though I’m mixing atmos in the daw, my DAW will NOT be outputting a Dolby atmos stream. It’s not an option even if I wanted it. It will be outputting a decoded stream of 12 discreet, uncompresssed channels…7.1.4. And it’s this 7.1.4 PCM audio I need to get over into my AVR somehow.
The problem is (short of spending thousands and thousands more I cant afford) I can’t figure out how to output that many channels to an AVR. I’ve got tons of experience with audio interfaces, but none with avrs and hdmi type connections. But seems like it must be possible somehow…
Things like hdmi 1.4, coaxial, optical etc reach their channel limits topping out at 8. But e-arc hdmi is capable of tons more bandwidth…up to 32 channels of audio. But I have no idea how to package the 12 channels of pcm I have and deliver it.
FYI, the AVR I’m leaning toward is a Tonewinner at-300. It does everything I need, including providing the right analog outputs IF I can just get the mix over to it. https://summithifiusa.com/products/at-300-16-channel-pre-pro-releasing-soon
I’m open a variety of solutions like: a virtual audio device that outputs to some sort of converter to earc, an inexepsive piece of hardware/interface that does similar, another AVR altogether…something else I’ve not thought of that meets the goal.
any ideas?
New here. Looking for some guidance I’ve not found anywhere else…
I’m an audio mix engineer. I’m putting together a home theater setup that I’d like to be able to act as a secondary workstation to my studio and am trying to figure out a clever, cost effective way to pull it off. Here’s the deets:
I’m branching into atmos and spatial mixing this year. My studio will have a proper atmos mixing setup. At home, Im putting together a home theater setup with an Oled + atmos capable avr + 7.1.4 speaker setup. Ideally would like this to stand alone without building it around a computer in any way. BUT…I want to find a way to loop my 2019 MacBook Pro (Big Sur) into the setup and mix/monitor on the 7.1.4.
****Important point: though I’m mixing atmos in the daw, my DAW will NOT be outputting a Dolby atmos stream. It’s not an option even if I wanted it. It will be outputting a decoded stream of 12 discreet, uncompresssed channels…7.1.4. And it’s this 7.1.4 PCM audio I need to get over into my AVR somehow.
The problem is (short of spending thousands and thousands more I cant afford) I can’t figure out how to output that many channels to an AVR. I’ve got tons of experience with audio interfaces, but none with avrs and hdmi type connections. But seems like it must be possible somehow…
Things like hdmi 1.4, coaxial, optical etc reach their channel limits topping out at 8. But e-arc hdmi is capable of tons more bandwidth…up to 32 channels of audio. But I have no idea how to package the 12 channels of pcm I have and deliver it.
FYI, the AVR I’m leaning toward is a Tonewinner at-300. It does everything I need, including providing the right analog outputs IF I can just get the mix over to it. https://summithifiusa.com/products/at-300-16-channel-pre-pro-releasing-soon
I’m open a variety of solutions like: a virtual audio device that outputs to some sort of converter to earc, an inexepsive piece of hardware/interface that does similar, another AVR altogether…something else I’ve not thought of that meets the goal.
any ideas?
I'm not aware of any straight forward non-licensed ($$$$) solution for extracting to LPCM from 12 channel atmos HDMI, or embedding to it. Any solution would be a hack. Sounds like you would need accurate, perhaps wordclock sync to video/score as well, or at minimum midi? if you can pull the LPCM from your mixer, ethernet, or USB will be the way. HDMI will be expensive.
You might be able to accomplish the audio with i2s, or USB, but that sync, if required will be the bugbear
Thanks for the reply!
Just to clarify a couple points:
- I wouldn’t need to solve extracting from 12 channel atmos. It’s not a Dolby signal once it leaves the DAW. It’s already decoded into 12 discrete channels.
- Im not personally attached to using hdmi as the delivery method. And clearly getting a digital signal out of the computer via usb or Ethernet is a lot more straightforward. BUT, at some point in the chain I think I need to convert to hdmi BC I don’t think there’s any other port on the AVR with enough bandwidth to receive that many channels as a single source…. other than hdmi 2.x. For example, it has analog inputs, just not enough. It has digital inputs, but they top out at 6 channels. etc. That said, the unit does have 2 usb connections. One that appears to be to plug in a drive, the second “for playing audio from a pc” according to the manual. But that’s all it says…and I suspect it likely tops out with a stereo signal. I’ve reached out to the company to clarify, but not holding my breath…though that would certainly simplify things if I could just plug straight in via usb!
- this particular home setup does not currently employ a hardware mixer. The audio clocking is done with core audio Though it wouldn’t have to be if another acceptable clock needed to be inserted in the chain. And I’m open to putting the right digital mixer hardware as my output if it solves for getting the signal over to the AVR, and assuming it does jack my expense up to a point that it’s no longer worth it.
- Irrespective of the delivery method (presumably hdmi 2.x, at least at the end of the chain), there’s also the matter of what sort of discrete multichannel signal the AVR would be able to make use of.
So while there’s grey areas in all this that Im just not educated about, here are some scenarios I’ve imagined might be part of a potential solution:
- DAW outputs to a virtual audio device, like maybe something from Rogue Amoeba. or Ginger Audio. That would provide a usable clock, enough discrete i/o to receive the 12 channels of uncompressed audio from the DAW, while also offering some virtual pathways to connect to another solution that ultimately delivers to the AVR. What happens in between IDK.
- And/or maybe something like ffmpeg could be part of a solution…maybe especially if there is a streamable format offered that is easier to send via hdmi. Like, get the 12 channels into ffmpeg, convert into a more hdmi and AVR friendly format, then send an hdmi cable with said signal to the AVR. I just don’t know enough about bit rate audio - or any of these formats - to know if that’s viable or not.
Its a Mac. You need a pro/semiPro Thunderbolt multichannel interface. That’s the hardware, how you get the 12 channels of PCM out to Thunderbolt in the right format might be the tricky part. But there has to be a way.
I do know that PureMusic/PureVinyl will split a single PCM stream to up to 6 filtered channels to triAmp.
If you are running the DAW on the Mac can it not just output to the interface? Does the AVR have a way to get 12 channels of either analog or video into it?
dave
I do know that PureMusic/PureVinyl will split a single PCM stream to up to 6 filtered channels to triAmp.
If you are running the DAW on the Mac can it not just output to the interface? Does the AVR have a way to get 12 channels of either analog or video into it?
dave
i2s (Inter IC Sound, correctly written i^2S) is a PCB/Board level communications standard used to communicate PCM, your DAC will likely natively require some form of I2S, but whether you can use it directly and send it via some interface (ethernet/usb, HDMI is unlikely, but perhaps possible. wouldnt be my choice $$$$)
That would be my question also. If you can access a nice interface and send balanced analogue to your AVR (or at this point, you just need multichannel amps, all AVR/crossover functions and digital volume control is all handled by the MAC and audio interface (USB, Thunderbolt, ethernet, PCIe), plus its originating from the one source. that would be my suggestion, as all your clocking problems go away. You can then also use whatever control surface you want to map the mixer/pots etc to.
That would be my question also. If you can access a nice interface and send balanced analogue to your AVR (or at this point, you just need multichannel amps, all AVR/crossover functions and digital volume control is all handled by the MAC and audio interface (USB, Thunderbolt, ethernet, PCIe), plus its originating from the one source. that would be my suggestion, as all your clocking problems go away. You can then also use whatever control surface you want to map the mixer/pots etc to.
Hi Dave, thanks for responding. To clarify:
I’m well aquatinted with pro audio Thunderbolt interfaces (as well as usb and Ethernet interfaces). I’ve had many, currently have a couple. But the one I have at home is only 2 channel, and while the other is quite capable of providing enough outputs, it is my dedicated interface for my studio space. The space Im trying to solve for here is an at-home space…and hoping to do it in a way that doesn’t break the bank.
But to answer your question: yes, the daw can easily output to an interface. It works like this: you plug the interface in. The device shows in macOS audio midi setup and becomes available as an output device/audio engine for the daw. And typically these devices can act as the audio clock, or they can slave to the core audio clock.
Alternatively, one could use a virtual interface. Like black hole, rogue amoeba, Dante virtual soundcard, ginger audio. Similarly, the (virtual) ”device” mounts in audio midi setup and provides plenty outputs. And one could select these as the daw playback engine as well…
…
And though these virtual don’t offer a way out of the machine, they at least provide a stable way for the DAW to output. Then you’ve got digital signals successfully streaming into the virtual device, ready to be routed to more flexible transition….like to another app, or out to a simple network cable.
….
Alternatively, Im pretty sure if you just plug an AVR into a Mac, an AVR will show as an audio device (I wish I could test, don’t currently have an AVR). Essentially, just like an interface…
But this is where things get murky for me: Im not clear if there’s some inherent limitations with connecting in this way, particularly via a direct hdmi connection. I don’t necessarily think enough output paths would be presented, bc I have some reason to believe the cap is 8 simply because that’s the way things have developed with those types of connections. But again, I’m murky on these points and haven’t been able to find clear answers. Further, im not sure that the clocking connection would be stable with this type of connection.
But I’ve also come across some info that suggests Monterey may soon be offering more potential connecting in this way.
In any case, I’m stuck in Big Sur for the moment anyhow.
So generally, my thinking is working like this:
- I can output 12 channels from my daw.
- This AVR is capable of managing a variety of audio formats.
- HDMI 2.x has enough bandwidth to handle the amount of data.
- Therefore, seems like there must be a way to take these 12 channels and deliver it to the AVR in a usable format.
It’s just data, all the dots are there, how can the dots be connected? What conversions need to take place? Can they happen primarily in software? Or is hardware needed?
maybe:
Daw>virtual audio device>conversionapp like ffmpeg>hdmi>AVR
or:
Daw>virtual audio device>Network cable>Hdmi converter hardware>AVR
Or some combination thereof? Seems like there must be a way. It’s just data.
I’m well aquatinted with pro audio Thunderbolt interfaces (as well as usb and Ethernet interfaces). I’ve had many, currently have a couple. But the one I have at home is only 2 channel, and while the other is quite capable of providing enough outputs, it is my dedicated interface for my studio space. The space Im trying to solve for here is an at-home space…and hoping to do it in a way that doesn’t break the bank.
But to answer your question: yes, the daw can easily output to an interface. It works like this: you plug the interface in. The device shows in macOS audio midi setup and becomes available as an output device/audio engine for the daw. And typically these devices can act as the audio clock, or they can slave to the core audio clock.
Alternatively, one could use a virtual interface. Like black hole, rogue amoeba, Dante virtual soundcard, ginger audio. Similarly, the (virtual) ”device” mounts in audio midi setup and provides plenty outputs. And one could select these as the daw playback engine as well…
…
And though these virtual don’t offer a way out of the machine, they at least provide a stable way for the DAW to output. Then you’ve got digital signals successfully streaming into the virtual device, ready to be routed to more flexible transition….like to another app, or out to a simple network cable.
….
Alternatively, Im pretty sure if you just plug an AVR into a Mac, an AVR will show as an audio device (I wish I could test, don’t currently have an AVR). Essentially, just like an interface…
But this is where things get murky for me: Im not clear if there’s some inherent limitations with connecting in this way, particularly via a direct hdmi connection. I don’t necessarily think enough output paths would be presented, bc I have some reason to believe the cap is 8 simply because that’s the way things have developed with those types of connections. But again, I’m murky on these points and haven’t been able to find clear answers. Further, im not sure that the clocking connection would be stable with this type of connection.
But I’ve also come across some info that suggests Monterey may soon be offering more potential connecting in this way.
In any case, I’m stuck in Big Sur for the moment anyhow.
So generally, my thinking is working like this:
- I can output 12 channels from my daw.
- This AVR is capable of managing a variety of audio formats.
- HDMI 2.x has enough bandwidth to handle the amount of data.
- Therefore, seems like there must be a way to take these 12 channels and deliver it to the AVR in a usable format.
It’s just data, all the dots are there, how can the dots be connected? What conversions need to take place? Can they happen primarily in software? Or is hardware needed?
maybe:
Daw>virtual audio device>conversionapp like ffmpeg>hdmi>AVR
or:
Daw>virtual audio device>Network cable>Hdmi converter hardware>AVR
Or some combination thereof? Seems like there must be a way. It’s just data.
OK. So you know how to do it, but you would rather not spend a grand+ for another interface.
dave
dave
well, you need to buy a multichannel DAC anyway to use the PCM/i2s and thats going to run you a grand at least. I doubt your AVR will accept i2s, certainly not 12 channels of i2s. So you would need to either buy 1 or 2 8 channel audio dacs (i'm not aware of any 12->16 channel audio dacs, but there are plenty of studio options and you could get away with used. pick up a USED RME Fireface or something.
even if you hack your AVR; how much to you value your time and there is risk you'll kill it, as it isnt just a connection like USB, its PCB level. There is a good chance the AVR digital interface chip uses something like TDM for 16 channels and that isnt so straight forward. you would need to come up with a logic circuit or use an FPGA to convert LPCM to TDM to splice into the AVR somewhere. basically IMO, eat the cost and get an interface.
even if you hack your AVR; how much to you value your time and there is risk you'll kill it, as it isnt just a connection like USB, its PCB level. There is a good chance the AVR digital interface chip uses something like TDM for 16 channels and that isnt so straight forward. you would need to come up with a logic circuit or use an FPGA to convert LPCM to TDM to splice into the AVR somewhere. basically IMO, eat the cost and get an interface.
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Just spoke to this in my other response, but unfortunately this is less than ideal for a couple reasons, though I readily concede it’s a tried and true approach (outputting analog from
an interface to a capable AVR or monitor controller).
The bigger story is here is Im spending a small fortune upgrading my main studio space, and another smaller mini-fortune on the speakers I’d need for this space in question. And this space is essentially my living room, so a primary purpose is just normal home theater stuff.
But there’s lots of devils in the details:
- for one, the AVR doesn’t have enough analog inputs…I need 12.
- in fact, I don’t recall finding any AVRs that have that many analog inputs
- also, there’s virtually no avrs on the market that are pre-pros with enough outputs…as Id ideally be using powered reference monitors
- there is a jbl that has Dante connectivity, but it’s 6k (the one I’m looking at is only 1400), and is apparently buggy as hell.
Or I could also buy a focusrite rednet 16 channel, a new 12-channel-minimum computer interface, route both the AVR analog outs and the interface analog outs to the rednet and then switch between them.
But bottom line, by the time I buy a new interface, plus an altogether different AVR, and/or a switch or monitor controller device to make it all play together, Im looking at 10 grand…not to mention lots more gear and cables to manage in my living room. It’s a nasty little domino effect.
Meanwhile Im like: “this AVR does everything I need it to. It decodes my home theater stufff, it can easily output and calibrate a 7.1.4 array, plus it does so with balanced oreamped outs and no amps messing up the gain staging to feed my powered monitors…and it’s affordable! Meanwhile over here I’ve got a MacBook Pro that I can make a 7.1.4 mix on…how is there not a way to get those 12 channels over to this AVR ??”
And maybe there just isn’t. But hell, even if I could discover that capability is on the horizon natively with macOS, that would be something.
But as it is, I just can’t spend thousands more dollars right now. Hence, me flipping over all these stones to see if there’s another way.
I sure appreciate you lending your thoughts to the discussion.
If I could do it for a grand-ish, I probably would. And maybe I can, but every path i tried to consider led to what seemed to be a much higher price tag in the final analysis (described in other response I just posted). Though maybe I’m missing something. Thanks very much, btw, for your thoughts.
I hear all that. If the only solution involves hardware hacking into AVR, I wouldn’t take a route like that. I just didn’t know if maybe there was a cleaner solution like I’ve alluded to: somethng like ffmpeg to a cable to AVR or something. Or some other way to approach it altogether.
And if it was as simple as throwing a thousand dollar interface into the mix, I’d probably just do it. But as I mentioned in another response, I don’t see a path that doesn’t end up costing many thousands more than that when you really unpack everything. Though maybe I’m missing something. Thanks again
obviously you could connect by HDMI directly if your AVR has HDMI input, but I would doubt very much it will allow 12 channel or I would have mentioned that. if yes, or you can find one that does, then sure do that, but I cant see that being cheap at a reasonable quality. Ive mentioned all the options really and it appears you arent prepared to do any of them, so its down to you mate ...
Thanks IG...maybe I’ve missed something then bc I still don’t see a way to make it all work within what you’ve said. There’s a number of options I might be “prepared” to take if I can get there without spending 10k dollars. Though maybe that’s just what it would take.
I’m not opposed to buying an interface, but I haven’t been terribly focused on it because I still have the challenge of how to deliver the audio to an AVR. And whether it’s analog or digital, it seems all these AVRs are only set up to receive formats that top out at 8 channels….unless delivered with some sort of stream via hdmi. And that’s really the crux of why I’ve been focused on hdmi. I don’t know how else one could deliver.
In fact, the one AVR I thought could receive that many uncompressed channels - jbl synthesis - I’m realizing I may be wrong about. As I just looked at the manual.
Do you recall having ever seen an AVR that can receive and sum more than 8 channels per source?
If that’s just not possible to do, does that not make an interface kind of a moot point? Or am I missing something here?
BC if thats true, then really the only possibilities that exist are:
- output the DAW and the avr to some sort of mixer or switch
- hack the hardware. Which, in light of what I’ve written here, I’m starting to reconsider, haha.
Am i missing something?
If it’s as simple as that, are you aware of some sort of simple patchbay/switch that could receive 24 analog channels (2 sets of 12) and switch between them?
HDMI 2.0 should support up to 32 channels of LPCM, but it doesn't look like any existing AVRs actually implement that.
Related question: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/hdmi-2-with-lpcm-32-channels.379377/
Related question: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/hdmi-2-with-lpcm-32-channels.379377/