Hi All,
About to start a high sensitivity (horn) speaker build, 3 maybe 4 way. I plan to design passive filters for each driver and when finished, power them with a low power tube amp. Very conventional.
For design and test purposes I'd like to use a multi channel dsp as filter and power each driver with its own SS amp. I know many will say I should "voice" the speakers with the tube amps that end up powering them, but (A) I don't have multiple channels of said tube amps, (B) I don't want to waste time waiting for them to warm up, and (C) don't want to waste expensive 'tube hours' on the design/test process.
All SS technologies welcome (class D, chip amps etc. included). Open to relatively easy diy solutions but prefer to buy something ready to use.
Requirements:
-Need 4-6 channels (in one box or not, doesn't matter).
-Neutral/accurate presentation (doesn't have to sound "musical" or "pleasing". For test purposes only).
-No more than 10w per channel needed but more won't hurt. Will take accuracy over power.
-Would like to spend no more than $1500.
Recommendations?
About to start a high sensitivity (horn) speaker build, 3 maybe 4 way. I plan to design passive filters for each driver and when finished, power them with a low power tube amp. Very conventional.
For design and test purposes I'd like to use a multi channel dsp as filter and power each driver with its own SS amp. I know many will say I should "voice" the speakers with the tube amps that end up powering them, but (A) I don't have multiple channels of said tube amps, (B) I don't want to waste time waiting for them to warm up, and (C) don't want to waste expensive 'tube hours' on the design/test process.
All SS technologies welcome (class D, chip amps etc. included). Open to relatively easy diy solutions but prefer to buy something ready to use.
Requirements:
-Need 4-6 channels (in one box or not, doesn't matter).
-Neutral/accurate presentation (doesn't have to sound "musical" or "pleasing". For test purposes only).
-No more than 10w per channel needed but more won't hurt. Will take accuracy over power.
-Would like to spend no more than $1500.
Recommendations?
This is nice (I have one), but probably overkill for you.
Crown Audio CTS 8200 8-channel Power Amplifier | eBay
On the other hand, I just bought two for these (for less than $100 for the pair):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crest-Audio-Power-Processing-Amplifier-CKS100-/311718323123?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=g82RqPYwIh6yq53Byt%252FSHpn%252Fm%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Well protected commercial design, a total of four channels at 50W/8R, The Crest Audio CKS100 Power Processing amplifier is designed specifically for the unique requirements of high-quality commercial and industrial sound installations. Design goals met by the CKS100 includes exceptional sonic accuracy, high efficiency, minimum power consumption, comprehensive loudspeaker protection, and the ability to handle extended duty cycles.
http://peaveycommercialaudio.com/media/pdf/cks100_11-20-96.pdf
They make the CK series up to 1450W per channel.
Crown Audio CTS 8200 8-channel Power Amplifier | eBay
On the other hand, I just bought two for these (for less than $100 for the pair):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crest-Audio-Power-Processing-Amplifier-CKS100-/311718323123?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=g82RqPYwIh6yq53Byt%252FSHpn%252Fm%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Well protected commercial design, a total of four channels at 50W/8R, The Crest Audio CKS100 Power Processing amplifier is designed specifically for the unique requirements of high-quality commercial and industrial sound installations. Design goals met by the CKS100 includes exceptional sonic accuracy, high efficiency, minimum power consumption, comprehensive loudspeaker protection, and the ability to handle extended duty cycles.
http://peaveycommercialaudio.com/media/pdf/cks100_11-20-96.pdf
They make the CK series up to 1450W per channel.
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Thanks djk,
Ya, at 500w per channel certainly overkill.
Am I wrong to think an amp designer (at a given price) has to choose between power and sound quality? Where are the very low power/very high sound quality as amps?
Speaking of Crown, I'm considering a pair of D-45's. 25w/channel and with 2 I'll have 4 channels. Any opinions?
Ya, at 500w per channel certainly overkill.
Am I wrong to think an amp designer (at a given price) has to choose between power and sound quality? Where are the very low power/very high sound quality as amps?
Speaking of Crown, I'm considering a pair of D-45's. 25w/channel and with 2 I'll have 4 channels. Any opinions?
Hi Voicecoil,
You might be further ahead by building small amplifiers that perform well on PCBs. You become an assembler. This would save you tons of cash and you would end up with usable amplifiers as well. The little Symasym would make an excellent candidate. Many built, very simple and contained on a board. Just add supplies and signals and away you go. They run cool and sound great. There are other kits on the site, and the store even has a couple. You could even build a Nelson Pass design if you so desired. That would be close to the amplifier you are aiming for, but in solid state.
Don't want to build them? I'm sure if you found an active member near you that does clean work, you could shoot him a couple hundred, the PCBs and parts and have him put them together for you.
Professional amplifiers and audiophile amplifiers have diverging optimizations. The pro amp must be reliable and sound quality comes in after that. The opposite is true for home amplifier designs Just an alternate suggestion for you.
-Chris
You might be further ahead by building small amplifiers that perform well on PCBs. You become an assembler. This would save you tons of cash and you would end up with usable amplifiers as well. The little Symasym would make an excellent candidate. Many built, very simple and contained on a board. Just add supplies and signals and away you go. They run cool and sound great. There are other kits on the site, and the store even has a couple. You could even build a Nelson Pass design if you so desired. That would be close to the amplifier you are aiming for, but in solid state.
Don't want to build them? I'm sure if you found an active member near you that does clean work, you could shoot him a couple hundred, the PCBs and parts and have him put them together for you.
Professional amplifiers and audiophile amplifiers have diverging optimizations. The pro amp must be reliable and sound quality comes in after that. The opposite is true for home amplifier designs Just an alternate suggestion for you.
-Chris
Well, to suggest something, we need to know more. What are the requirements? Low impedance? Listening level and efficiency of the speakers? For some folks high sensitivity starts with 90dB (yes, even in a horn 
) others count out everything below 100dB/1W 
😉
At the Crown CTS 8200 I don't like the always-on fans for home use. Otherwise good amps. I don't know the D-45, I've read some good reviews but can't tell much otherwise. I would suggest something beefier in the bass though.
I could imagine a few LM3886 amps for mid-high, they aren't expensive and sound quite good, for the bass a Sure IRS2092 amp would be nice. A complete IRS2092 amp setup would be nice too.
) others count out everything below 100dB/1W 😉At the Crown CTS 8200 I don't like the always-on fans for home use. Otherwise good amps. I don't know the D-45, I've read some good reviews but can't tell much otherwise. I would suggest something beefier in the bass though.
I could imagine a few LM3886 amps for mid-high, they aren't expensive and sound quite good, for the bass a Sure IRS2092 amp would be nice. A complete IRS2092 amp setup would be nice too.
I agree. Pro audio amps are not my first choice ...though "reliability" is not a bad quality to have for my purposes either.
For this particular application I'd rather find something commercially available. It looks like it fits my needs perfectly but the Symasym is more of a project than I'd like to take on at this time. Likewise the task of sourcing parts and a builder, waiting for completion, troubleshooting etc.
Appreciate the suggestion though 🙂
For this particular application I'd rather find something commercially available. It looks like it fits my needs perfectly but the Symasym is more of a project than I'd like to take on at this time. Likewise the task of sourcing parts and a builder, waiting for completion, troubleshooting etc.
Appreciate the suggestion though 🙂
My appologies ICG, by high sensitivity I meant over 100db. I expect around 102db when finished.
The amp I'm seeking would be for powering mid/high horns (250hz and above).
I'm unsure how bass will be handled at this time but I have on hand a a pair of JBL 2245's in sealed cabs and a Crown K2 if I need big power. Now that I mention it, perhaps the small crown d-45's will share the same sound signature of the k2?
The amp I'm seeking would be for powering mid/high horns (250hz and above).
I'm unsure how bass will be handled at this time but I have on hand a a pair of JBL 2245's in sealed cabs and a Crown K2 if I need big power. Now that I mention it, perhaps the small crown d-45's will share the same sound signature of the k2?
Hi Voicecoil,
I don't know if your needs can be satisfied with the limitations you have stated. For commercial products, that many channels will only give you some really inexpensive and bad sounding products. You almost need an old Tascam headphone amplifier unit. It would put out a few watts (high for headphone use).
The only other direction I could suggest you take is to look into rentals. This is a short term project I assume, and having amplifiers lying around afterwards wouldn't be useful to you. Maybe a couple consumer multichannel amplifiers designed for surround sound might suit. Otherwards, at that money I can't see you getting anything that you could stand to listen to for any length of time.
-Chris
I don't know if your needs can be satisfied with the limitations you have stated. For commercial products, that many channels will only give you some really inexpensive and bad sounding products. You almost need an old Tascam headphone amplifier unit. It would put out a few watts (high for headphone use).
The only other direction I could suggest you take is to look into rentals. This is a short term project I assume, and having amplifiers lying around afterwards wouldn't be useful to you. Maybe a couple consumer multichannel amplifiers designed for surround sound might suit. Otherwards, at that money I can't see you getting anything that you could stand to listen to for any length of time.
-Chris
Would you care to assemble your own (quite simple) amps? 🙂
A TDA2050 can give you some 25W per channel, an LM1875 about 20W each.
Very simple chipamps, you can put 8 of them (or 4 stereo boards) inside a single cabinet and power them from a common supply.
Sound is killer, well beyond regular Hi Fi specs.
Did I mention it will be inexpensive?
About 1/4 to 1/8 of your current budget, depending on how nice you want it to look; if for Lab use only, you may even build it without a case, all parts mounted on a piece of plywood.
A TDA2050 can give you some 25W per channel, an LM1875 about 20W each.
Very simple chipamps, you can put 8 of them (or 4 stereo boards) inside a single cabinet and power them from a common supply.
Sound is killer, well beyond regular Hi Fi specs.
Did I mention it will be inexpensive?
About 1/4 to 1/8 of your current budget, depending on how nice you want it to look; if for Lab use only, you may even build it without a case, all parts mounted on a piece of plywood.
Yes Chris, it would seem that there's not much of a market for low power/high quality amps. Understandably I guess. Multichannel home theatre type amps could be a potential avenue. Thanks again.
I'm inclined to suggest chipamps for the testing phase.
The biggest difference between most Solid State amplifiers and most Valve/Tube amplifiers is output impedance.
That is easily overcome by adding 500milliohms to 1000milliohms of power resistor between the output of the SS amp and the speaker to simulate the higher Zo of the Valves/transformer.
The next biggest difference is probably bandwidth.
Again the SS amp can have the bandwidth adjusted using passive input filters that give a close approximation to that which emanates from a Valve amp.
A set of 3off 50W chipamps directly driving the active speakers will probably sound as loud as a 100W amplifier driving the same speakers through passive filters. I see this as being no different from the loudness of the final system.
Do you need 6 channels to develop your passive filter designs?
Would just 3 channels and design in "Mono" mode get you to where you want to end up?
3channels of bare chipamps, just heatsinks and no chassis will be very cheap.
The biggest difference between most Solid State amplifiers and most Valve/Tube amplifiers is output impedance.
That is easily overcome by adding 500milliohms to 1000milliohms of power resistor between the output of the SS amp and the speaker to simulate the higher Zo of the Valves/transformer.
The next biggest difference is probably bandwidth.
Again the SS amp can have the bandwidth adjusted using passive input filters that give a close approximation to that which emanates from a Valve amp.
A set of 3off 50W chipamps directly driving the active speakers will probably sound as loud as a 100W amplifier driving the same speakers through passive filters. I see this as being no different from the loudness of the final system.
Do you need 6 channels to develop your passive filter designs?
Would just 3 channels and design in "Mono" mode get you to where you want to end up?
3channels of bare chipamps, just heatsinks and no chassis will be very cheap.
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I'd suggest two different approaches:
a) buy a home theatre amplifier (cheap as chips used), you get a bunch of amplifier channels and power supply all in a box - just isolate the inputs to the power amplifiers and feed them from your source.
b) build a simply but very decent set of SS Class A amplifiers that might even give your tube amps a run for their money. It could open up a new world of interest and possibilities to you, act as a back-up amp, become your main amp, allow you to demonstrate the difference between tube and SS to friends, etc. etc. If going down this path I'd buy a ready made DIY chassis from China off eBay with big heatsinks then go buy some pcb's for the amplifiers (some are available from DIYAudio, and/or peruse the PASS labs forum)
a) buy a home theatre amplifier (cheap as chips used), you get a bunch of amplifier channels and power supply all in a box - just isolate the inputs to the power amplifiers and feed them from your source.
b) build a simply but very decent set of SS Class A amplifiers that might even give your tube amps a run for their money. It could open up a new world of interest and possibilities to you, act as a back-up amp, become your main amp, allow you to demonstrate the difference between tube and SS to friends, etc. etc. If going down this path I'd buy a ready made DIY chassis from China off eBay with big heatsinks then go buy some pcb's for the amplifiers (some are available from DIYAudio, and/or peruse the PASS labs forum)
Thank you all for the suggestions.
I have a good friend who built a few class A Pass designs. Very impressive indeed. I admire the time and effort he spent on them but sadly can't afford the same.
For my purposes I'll likely go with either a multi channel home theatre type amp, or try some 'plug and play' chip amp modules like the Tripath based ones from Dayton.
I have a couple decent linear power supplies which should do nicely to power the chip boards.
I have a good friend who built a few class A Pass designs. Very impressive indeed. I admire the time and effort he spent on them but sadly can't afford the same.
For my purposes I'll likely go with either a multi channel home theatre type amp, or try some 'plug and play' chip amp modules like the Tripath based ones from Dayton.
I have a couple decent linear power supplies which should do nicely to power the chip boards.
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
FYI - you are probably aware of the approach whereby the tube amplifiers are bandwidth optimized for each driver: Romy the Cat's Melquiades SET amplifier
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