well i bought me some styrene louvres/eggcrate mace is 13x13 mm and thickness of a panel is 10mm. good for some mid high panels. wanted to use this stuff for a long time, and now i finally got a company selling them nearby. they still aint the cheapest material to use 15 euro for a 600mm x 1200mm panel.
now i browsed the internet for some solvents. because i want just like acoustat to encapsul the wires. so the upper part need to get the solvent aplied so the wires can sink in. or in my case i press the louvre on the wires that are tensioned over a flat service (MDF or whatever). no i read somewhere people use MEK Methylethylketon to glue or disolve styrene. so i bought 1 liter.
got my panels got my MEK lets see how well it disolves.....
slow incredible slow, also the penetration of the MEK is not deep enough to let anything sink in to it, it stay pretty hard. so my question is according to the acoustat factory tour, they let the wires sink into the louvre. ? or do they add disolved stryrene where the wires sink in ?
i know acoustat used Methylene Chloride as solvend, is this just way more agressive and is that the reason why my styrene would not let me sink in anything? if so i hit enter and buy me a liter of the stuff, it does looks dangerous
and by now collected a warehouse of solvents glues and kits
now i browsed the internet for some solvents. because i want just like acoustat to encapsul the wires. so the upper part need to get the solvent aplied so the wires can sink in. or in my case i press the louvre on the wires that are tensioned over a flat service (MDF or whatever). no i read somewhere people use MEK Methylethylketon to glue or disolve styrene. so i bought 1 liter.
got my panels got my MEK lets see how well it disolves.....
slow incredible slow, also the penetration of the MEK is not deep enough to let anything sink in to it, it stay pretty hard. so my question is according to the acoustat factory tour, they let the wires sink into the louvre. ? or do they add disolved stryrene where the wires sink in ?
i know acoustat used Methylene Chloride as solvend, is this just way more agressive and is that the reason why my styrene would not let me sink in anything? if so i hit enter and buy me a liter of the stuff, it does looks dangerous
and by now collected a warehouse of solvents glues and kits
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well i bought me some styrene louvres/eggcrate mace is 13x13 mm and thickness of a panel is 10mm. good for some mid high panels. wanted to use this stuff for a long time, and now i finally got a company selling them nearby. they still aint the cheapest material to use 15 euro for a 600mm x 1200mm panel.
now i browsed the internet for some solvents. because i want just like acoustat to encapsul the wires. so the upper part need to get the solvent aplied so the wires can sink in. or in my case i press the louvre on the wires that are tensioned over a flat service (MDF or whatever). no i read somewhere people use MEK Methylethylketon to glue or disolve styrene. so i bought 1 liter.
got my panels got my MEK lets see how well it disolves.....
slow incredible slow, also the penetration of the MEK is not deep enough to let anything sink in to it, it stay pretty hard. so my question is according to the acoustat factory tour, they let the wires sink into the louvre. ? or do they add disolved stryrene where the wires sink in ?
i know acoustat used Methylene Chloride as solvend, is this just way more agressive and is that the reason why my styrene would not let me sink in anything? if so i hit enter and buy me a liter of the stuff, it does looks dangerous
Hi, i have built lesser panels by using metylene chloride in the past. Louvre material is dissolved in it to viscosity like syroup or honey. It does not attack pvc. Wires should be bonded by using encapsulation. Do not expect very short working time. It's not recommended to inhale vapour of metylene chloride so it's best to work outside. Hope this helps.
Acoustat used virgin styrene pellets dissolved in methylene chloride. Using leftover bits of the louver, instead of virgin styrene, may cause some difficulties, since the louvers probably have colorant and or additional fillers.
The styrene pellet/methylene chloride mixture took a long time to completely dissolve - usually over night at least. The resulting 'glue' did encapsulate the wires, and the solvent did cause the wires to sink slightly into the louver. However, note that Acoustat created a curve to the panel during the gluing process, which introduced additional tension in the wires. This tension helped the wires sink into the louver. I wouldn't expect that you'd get much 'sinking' without the additional tension on the wires.
The styrene pellet/methylene chloride mixture took a long time to completely dissolve - usually over night at least. The resulting 'glue' did encapsulate the wires, and the solvent did cause the wires to sink slightly into the louver. However, note that Acoustat created a curve to the panel during the gluing process, which introduced additional tension in the wires. This tension helped the wires sink into the louver. I wouldn't expect that you'd get much 'sinking' without the additional tension on the wires.
Some more comments. I expect the op knows that some sort of mechanical tension for wires is necessary to get acceptable results. Second, in case of light louvers it's possible to use much thinner and/or stranded wires with good results.
Thinner wire is easier to encapsulate to such thin gluing surface IMO.
Thinner wire is easier to encapsulate to such thin gluing surface IMO.
these are 30 gage double build magnet wire
the wires are encapsulated. Hope this is of interest. The goal here was to increase the stator wire density you can see there are about 25 wires per inch on the 3/8's inch thick styrene louvre. Best regards Moray James.
the wires are encapsulated. Hope this is of interest. The goal here was to increase the stator wire density you can see there are about 25 wires per inch on the 3/8's inch thick styrene louvre. Best regards Moray James.
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well i got the sirop now, i did disolve styrene left overs of the louvre, in methylene chloride, it does take some time but i got a hite sirop now witch dries up in a film of styrene if i just put a litle in a bowl. only thing i now think off how did they aply the stuff ? because its not everywhere i supsect the machine was a cnc crontolled thing? that moved the track 13 mm sprayed glue in the X direction moved over 13 mm and did the same ??? because i have no idea of adding the sirop over the wires without creating a mess
maybe with a syringe. but this kind of ***** up the need for speed
is this the front of the wires? i mean do i see black because the rest of the wires sunk in ? or am i looking to the other side of the louvre ?
i got pure methylene chloride and to get the louvre soft enough to let wires sink in you either need to aply allot, and soft up more then you would like or they are not really sunk but more embeded in there sirop solution. another option i could think of is get a metal container in the form of the louvre ad 1 or 2 mm of methylene chloride put the louvre in. let it soak for few minutes get it out and press it onto the wires and wait to set.. but not looking forward to that aproach.
by the way they look very nice
in this picture they dont seem to be sunken in, they are on top of the louvre embedded in styrene.
oh 25 wires per inch.. my wires have a dia of 2 mm . that might be the problem.. mine have to sink 2 mm yours have to sink maybe 0.5 mm or something ?
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You are right about the speed issue but if you are only concerned with building what you need for yourself it is not bad and you only have to do it every thirty years or so. The panels above had been intended for higher volume production application and I wanted a method which was reasonably fast and most of all reliable. Acoustat's method has very well stood the test of time and they are vastly superior to any other commercial ESL panel design. Should be more than good enough for the DIY builders out there. Best regards Moray James.
WrineX: my picture shows the diaphragm side of the stator. The wire and the louvre are both black. The reflection from the flash make it hard to see clearly. These wires (30 gage) are sitting directly on top of the louvre. I did some experiments with using a hot iron to press the stator wires into the louvre. I do sand the louvre surface to make it level and to provide a clean and textured surface. Rather than solvent I think that a better method would be to run DC through the wire to heat it enough to let it melt into the louvre but overall attempting to melt the wires into place is full of problems such as controlling how deep the wires go into the louvre and many other difficulties so I just walked away from that idea.
Keep in mind that styrene louvres are very poor quality plastic and that they use lots of plasticizer to keep it flexible. The plasticizer migrates up out of the plastic to the surface so sanding the surface before you work on it removes it. You don't have to sand a lot just the surface lightly. Good luck with your project. I see that you are working hard and thinking lots about it, I have been there and done that myself almost twenty five years. Now I am playing with high efficiency drivers and Karlson tubes with compression drivers. Ribbons ESL's and horns are the only ways to achieve true to life dynamics. Horns let you achieve the lowest distortion with the most realistic level of playback. Keep thinking and solve some problems. The easiest to build panels I ever made were with tensioned Tefzel 28 gage around 13 wires per linear inch of panel (3/8" thick louver) and I used Testors non toxic model glue safe to use but slow to cure it was easy to apply and encapsulate the wires. The Testors will take about half the time to set up to good strength compared to styrene and solvent, so both methods are on the slow side. I left my stators on the jigs for a week before I took them off to insure the adhesive had hardened enough to deal with the tension of the wires which is considerable. These were the first I built and I wanted to double the wires per inch over Acoustat then I doubled the wire count again which was better but not as much difference as the first time I doubled the count. Not terribly cheap but the went together quickly all things considered. They were a big improvement over my then stock Acoustat panels. Best regards Moray James.
http://www.testors.com/category/136636/Non-Toxic_Cement_For_Plastic
Keep in mind that styrene louvres are very poor quality plastic and that they use lots of plasticizer to keep it flexible. The plasticizer migrates up out of the plastic to the surface so sanding the surface before you work on it removes it. You don't have to sand a lot just the surface lightly. Good luck with your project. I see that you are working hard and thinking lots about it, I have been there and done that myself almost twenty five years. Now I am playing with high efficiency drivers and Karlson tubes with compression drivers. Ribbons ESL's and horns are the only ways to achieve true to life dynamics. Horns let you achieve the lowest distortion with the most realistic level of playback. Keep thinking and solve some problems. The easiest to build panels I ever made were with tensioned Tefzel 28 gage around 13 wires per linear inch of panel (3/8" thick louver) and I used Testors non toxic model glue safe to use but slow to cure it was easy to apply and encapsulate the wires. The Testors will take about half the time to set up to good strength compared to styrene and solvent, so both methods are on the slow side. I left my stators on the jigs for a week before I took them off to insure the adhesive had hardened enough to deal with the tension of the wires which is considerable. These were the first I built and I wanted to double the wires per inch over Acoustat then I doubled the wire count again which was better but not as much difference as the first time I doubled the count. Not terribly cheap but the went together quickly all things considered. They were a big improvement over my then stock Acoustat panels. Best regards Moray James.
http://www.testors.com/category/136636/Non-Toxic_Cement_For_Plastic
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Time has clouded my recollection. It was decades ago when I built with Testors and styrene solvent. Seem to me that upon reflecting the two methods were about as fast. I had thought that the Testors was faster but my first attempt was not left in the jig as long and the wires moved. Systems which are dependent upon off gassing have the same problem the solvent has to escape for them to set up solid. As soon as a surface skin is developed then off gassing is slowed down dramatically as the solvent has nowhere to go and must slowly filter through the surface skin which keeps getting thicker. So application of multiple thin coats works much better than one thick coat does.I believe that the non toxic Testors model cement is the safest product to use and methylene chloride the least safe. I gave up on both of them in the end. I developed a method which is not non toxic but manageable and reasonably fast in comparison. That is the method which I used to build the panel in the picture I just posted. that idea however is mine for now and I do not wish to share it. Best regards Moray James.
The key is to embed wires in methylene chloride/styrene(or louvre material) syroup. Expect some work in this.
Basically the main reason I abandoned light louvre method is due to relative difficulties in gluing/ecapsulating wires. The thicker the wires the more difficult is to work with. I used 1mm OD wires and it was more or less straight
forward. Large diameter is more difficult to work with as the distance which glue has to sink is greater.
You will not get away without using wire stretching jig to get good results.
Here is one idea how to build one easily.
Hope this helps.
Lukas
Basically the main reason I abandoned light louvre method is due to relative difficulties in gluing/ecapsulating wires. The thicker the wires the more difficult is to work with. I used 1mm OD wires and it was more or less straight
forward. Large diameter is more difficult to work with as the distance which glue has to sink is greater.
You will not get away without using wire stretching jig to get good results.
Here is one idea how to build one easily.
Hope this helps.
Lukas
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Bazukaz: that's a great little jig to make very accurate and consistent panels on. One of the things I was after all those years ago was to A) increase the stator density for greater charge per unit area and B) to make open stator area area large as possible hence the 30 gage magnet wire and the 28 gage tefzell wire. Obviously these two objectives work against one another. Over the yeras I have decided that stator density is the more important of the two objectives. Further many small wires can be used to very uniformly restrict air flow between the diaphragm and the stators and this is a very good thing to provide acoustical damping to the diaphragm. This is something that many designers have quietly included though I did not realize this until much later in my travels. Take a look at the construction of a Quad 63 for a typical example of this very technique. Air drag can be used to very good affect damping the diaphragm and this will enhance efficiency. My estimation is that optimum open area id between 25 -30 percent open depending upon your choice of diaphragm material. Hope that my ramblings are of some interest. Best regards Moray James.
Very Good Points!!
Many of the very same reasons I choose to use window screen for a stator material on my original First panels.
I too have endured the painstaking process of wasting time and money of finding the easiest way to build ESL's, it is just inevitably part of the process.
Once I had got my method down I am now able to produce a set of panels rather quickly.
My latest design only took about 10 days to produce and most of that time was waiting for the glues and paints to fully cure enough to continue working.
After much research on all of the problems involved in the construction of wire stator's, I decide to use rigid steel TIG wire and this method worked out very nicely even though there is a bit of a waste of paint getting them properly coated, I think in the long run it produced a far better results.
I Like using the lighting grate material but only for smaller or narrower panels as rigidity is not one of its strongest factors.
However it does work well for the most part.
I had found that out after building my 9" X 22" panels and that more support would be needed for my proposed size of 12" x "48 thus the main reason I have not built them yet, not to mention the dispersion effects of such a wide panel.
They are now 11 years old and fairly flat still but not when they are assembled with the tension of the diaphragm applied to them.
They do Bow out slightly away from the diaphragm when they are assembled.
I first used the TIG wire method to build some 11.5" wide stator's back in 2005.
They are extremely flat and rigid, although I have not coated and finished them yet, I do still have them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/198555-els-construction-questions.html#post2747919
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ectrostatic-speakers-dummies.html#post2547781
I am thinking about cutting them up in 3" to 4" sections to add to the outsides of my current design plan when I decide to build the 6 footers.
A Segmented Stator Desktop ESL
Back then all I could get was .062" rod but .035" and .045" is now available in straight rod.
By the time you add the coating using the .062" gauge you end up with a diameter of similar size to that of wire.
A Segmented Stator Desktop ESL
They ended about .080" in dia. with .008 to .010 of coating thickness on them.
The acrylic enamel that I used has about 2X to 3X better insulating factor (dielectric strength) than PVC insulation has per mil.
Using a thinner rod would be of a great benefit in this aspect.
Since the thinner TIG rod is more flexible it would still be very rigid compared to copper.
I am planning a new design using both materials, TIG rod of a smaller gauge and the lighting grate for the frame and support of the diaphragm frames.
For my little panels just the rigidity of the stators is enough to support the very flexible diaphragm frame, but won't be as much for the construction of a much larger panel.
The thinner MIG wire that comes on rolls maybe an alternative but you would still be plagued with having to stretch it in order to make it straight again,But once straightened it should work well.
I had thought about this after staring at my Bass Guitar for quite some time remembering how straight the strings are when they come of as I replace them !!!
FWIW
jer
Many of the very same reasons I choose to use window screen for a stator material on my original First panels.
I too have endured the painstaking process of wasting time and money of finding the easiest way to build ESL's, it is just inevitably part of the process.
Once I had got my method down I am now able to produce a set of panels rather quickly.
My latest design only took about 10 days to produce and most of that time was waiting for the glues and paints to fully cure enough to continue working.
After much research on all of the problems involved in the construction of wire stator's, I decide to use rigid steel TIG wire and this method worked out very nicely even though there is a bit of a waste of paint getting them properly coated, I think in the long run it produced a far better results.
I Like using the lighting grate material but only for smaller or narrower panels as rigidity is not one of its strongest factors.
However it does work well for the most part.
I had found that out after building my 9" X 22" panels and that more support would be needed for my proposed size of 12" x "48 thus the main reason I have not built them yet, not to mention the dispersion effects of such a wide panel.
They are now 11 years old and fairly flat still but not when they are assembled with the tension of the diaphragm applied to them.
They do Bow out slightly away from the diaphragm when they are assembled.
I first used the TIG wire method to build some 11.5" wide stator's back in 2005.
They are extremely flat and rigid, although I have not coated and finished them yet, I do still have them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/198555-els-construction-questions.html#post2747919
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...ectrostatic-speakers-dummies.html#post2547781
I am thinking about cutting them up in 3" to 4" sections to add to the outsides of my current design plan when I decide to build the 6 footers.
A Segmented Stator Desktop ESL
Back then all I could get was .062" rod but .035" and .045" is now available in straight rod.
By the time you add the coating using the .062" gauge you end up with a diameter of similar size to that of wire.
A Segmented Stator Desktop ESL
They ended about .080" in dia. with .008 to .010 of coating thickness on them.
The acrylic enamel that I used has about 2X to 3X better insulating factor (dielectric strength) than PVC insulation has per mil.
Using a thinner rod would be of a great benefit in this aspect.
Since the thinner TIG rod is more flexible it would still be very rigid compared to copper.
I am planning a new design using both materials, TIG rod of a smaller gauge and the lighting grate for the frame and support of the diaphragm frames.
For my little panels just the rigidity of the stators is enough to support the very flexible diaphragm frame, but won't be as much for the construction of a much larger panel.
The thinner MIG wire that comes on rolls maybe an alternative but you would still be plagued with having to stretch it in order to make it straight again,But once straightened it should work well.
I had thought about this after staring at my Bass Guitar for quite some time remembering how straight the strings are when they come of as I replace them !!!
FWIW
jer
i might get a syringe tomorow an try to encapsul them and i wil try the soaking method with a verry small piece, just to know if it works.
not looking forward to use the syrenge so many times. 1000 mm stator devided by 13 is the times i have to glue.. times 4..... thats insane 307 times.. migth as well ad a glue system to my cnc and let him glue it
not looking forward to use the syrenge so many times. 1000 mm stator devided by 13 is the times i have to glue.. times 4..... thats insane 307 times.. migth as well ad a glue system to my cnc
and let him glue it
Sorry to have gone a bit OT on the last post.
I used super glue, to glue down my screen stators.
I originally used a medium viscosity type.
And it worked well and later I used the regular stuff and ultimately had to redo them again later as it was a thin bond and lifted after a few years in some spots.
I had used a Teflon coated iron to help aid in the curing process of the glue.
At least it was faster than waiting outright for it to cure.
If I was not careful, Too high of heat would also mar my perfectly Powder coated screen material.
I had to do each section individually sliding a piece of glass along the way to assure an even pressure along the span of the points being glued.
This guaranteed that the stator got glued down securely and flat without any wraps or ripples.
It was quite tedious as the glues curing time was not consistent.
It was after I was done that I had discovered the trick about MEK but I never tried it for fear of messing up the integrity of the coatings I used.
I am curious as to how it works out for you.
My First stator's were bare metal mesh glued down and then painted.
Later I found this limited my ability to get a good solid seal on the wires and this limited me as far as how much voltage could be applied with out arcing issues.
But they did play nicely for what they were.
I now coat the mesh before it is attached to the frame.
Some have said the super glue can be, or is, damaging to the PVC insulation on the wire.
But, I don't see how this could any more so than using MEK depending on the overall thickness of the insulation itself.
I have not experienced such issues using super glue as here I can get a package of 4 or 6 tube for $1 or $2 or so.
I even used it for gluing the diaphragm frames.
You just have use a lot of it and make sure that it is completely cured before handling them or else they will fall apart.
Then you will have to clean up the pieces and start over.
I have done this before as well.
jer
I used super glue, to glue down my screen stators.
I originally used a medium viscosity type.
And it worked well and later I used the regular stuff and ultimately had to redo them again later as it was a thin bond and lifted after a few years in some spots.
I had used a Teflon coated iron to help aid in the curing process of the glue.
At least it was faster than waiting outright for it to cure.
If I was not careful, Too high of heat would also mar my perfectly Powder coated screen material.
I had to do each section individually sliding a piece of glass along the way to assure an even pressure along the span of the points being glued.
This guaranteed that the stator got glued down securely and flat without any wraps or ripples.
It was quite tedious as the glues curing time was not consistent.
It was after I was done that I had discovered the trick about MEK but I never tried it for fear of messing up the integrity of the coatings I used.
I am curious as to how it works out for you.
My First stator's were bare metal mesh glued down and then painted.
Later I found this limited my ability to get a good solid seal on the wires and this limited me as far as how much voltage could be applied with out arcing issues.
But they did play nicely for what they were.
I now coat the mesh before it is attached to the frame.
Some have said the super glue can be, or is, damaging to the PVC insulation on the wire.
But, I don't see how this could any more so than using MEK depending on the overall thickness of the insulation itself.
I have not experienced such issues using super glue as here I can get a package of 4 or 6 tube for $1 or $2 or so.
I even used it for gluing the diaphragm frames.
You just have use a lot of it and make sure that it is completely cured before handling them or else they will fall apart.
Then you will have to clean up the pieces and start over.
I have done this before as well.
jer
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yeah weird enough , MEK and methyleenchloride both disolve PVC wich could harm the wire insulation. some people said it does not but really it does!!!! there is MEK in most PVC glue's as wel as in the cleaners of fittings. methyleenchloride is nto used in the netherlands any more as in glue or as paint stripper. well i do some small tests tomorow and we will see. if all fails i feel the need to go back to the only fast and almost never failing PCB material. i just came up with the idea to powder coat the conductive side. since tribo powdercoating is becoming into the picture i can coat non conducting services as well and coat with several layers. and because coating is only needed on one side i can even cure it with a paint burner so no larg oven needed for a long tweeter panel but first ill try to glue some wires using the solvent methode. but my hopes are not that high atm. to much set backs and cash spended
btw mek can be used to glue styrene to styrene, but to disolve styrene in it, to use as glue is a nightmare. i had tried 100% pure MEK, but takes ages to disolve just a tiny bit. the methyleenchloride is pretty fast and if you cut ur styrene small enough its gone in a hour, you end up with a nice white sirop.
i see you experimented allot to gerald, its fun to do, tobad with experimenting many times the outcome sucks
but first ill try to glue some wires using the solvent methode. but my hopes are not that high atm. to much set backs and cash spendedbtw mek can be used to glue styrene to styrene, but to disolve styrene in it, to use as glue is a nightmare. i had tried 100% pure MEK, but takes ages to disolve just a tiny bit. the methyleenchloride is pretty fast and if you cut ur styrene small enough its gone in a hour, you end up with a nice white sirop.
i see you experimented allot to gerald, its fun to do, tobad with experimenting many times the outcome sucks
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