Hi guys,
Ok now I know I've been a pain to you guys with all my questions, but I've learned a bunch now and Im ready to give this whole subwoofer thing a shot again. I think I have a project that most of you will have fun with. I need something That is gonna be LOUD. As you know I have 4 Technics floorstanding speakers which have 15 inch woofers in them and are very loud. I obviously want low distortion and high quality, but I think I'm willing to trade some of that for SPL. Even my old sub was putting out 100db at my listening position about 12 feet away, and once the floorstanding speakers were turned up, the sub completely dissapeared. You could crank the hell out of it or turn it off and it didnt make a bit of difference. So in order to preserve some sound quality, I've been thinking about going with smaller drivers, but more of them. Since I need SPL I'll probaby stick with a vented design. I've been thinking about 4 of the Peerless XLS 12" model 830500 drivers in a vented design. They have a sensitivity of 90.6db and an Fs of 18.1Hz. Do you guys have any better options? Should I go with maybe something like six or eight 12 inch or 15 inch drivers that are of lesser quality but a higher sensitivity since I need SPL? I watch movies occasionally so I want something that will kick, but I mainly listen to music so tuning to 20Hz or anywhere below that is really unnecessary for me. Id rather keep it tuned a bit higher so I can get better output. Im thinking I need something like 115 or 120db at 12 feet away for under $1200. Is this project even possible? I know horns are capable of this but I dont have the space/resources/patience for something that complicated. Then I need to worry about amplification. But I figure I'll wire the drivers in series and run an ep2500 amp in bridged mono mode at about 2100 watts, so that shouldnt be a problem.
Ok guys go to work! I'm open to any and all suggestions, so start throwing them at me!
Ok now I know I've been a pain to you guys with all my questions, but I've learned a bunch now and Im ready to give this whole subwoofer thing a shot again. I think I have a project that most of you will have fun with. I need something That is gonna be LOUD. As you know I have 4 Technics floorstanding speakers which have 15 inch woofers in them and are very loud. I obviously want low distortion and high quality, but I think I'm willing to trade some of that for SPL. Even my old sub was putting out 100db at my listening position about 12 feet away, and once the floorstanding speakers were turned up, the sub completely dissapeared. You could crank the hell out of it or turn it off and it didnt make a bit of difference. So in order to preserve some sound quality, I've been thinking about going with smaller drivers, but more of them. Since I need SPL I'll probaby stick with a vented design. I've been thinking about 4 of the Peerless XLS 12" model 830500 drivers in a vented design. They have a sensitivity of 90.6db and an Fs of 18.1Hz. Do you guys have any better options? Should I go with maybe something like six or eight 12 inch or 15 inch drivers that are of lesser quality but a higher sensitivity since I need SPL? I watch movies occasionally so I want something that will kick, but I mainly listen to music so tuning to 20Hz or anywhere below that is really unnecessary for me. Id rather keep it tuned a bit higher so I can get better output. Im thinking I need something like 115 or 120db at 12 feet away for under $1200. Is this project even possible? I know horns are capable of this but I dont have the space/resources/patience for something that complicated. Then I need to worry about amplification. But I figure I'll wire the drivers in series and run an ep2500 amp in bridged mono mode at about 2100 watts, so that shouldnt be a problem.
Ok guys go to work! I'm open to any and all suggestions, so start throwing them at me!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-555
MAN thats cheap. Any thoughts on that? Fs only 27 Hz and 10mm xmax but sensitivity of 93.6db at 2.831v/1m. Also its inductance seems kinda high but its a 2.5" VC and can handle 250wrms. and 8 of them would only run me $512. Hell Id even buy 12 of em!
Just an idea, let me know what you think. Maybe it makes more sense to stick with a lower number of drivers that are higher quality.
MAN thats cheap. Any thoughts on that? Fs only 27 Hz and 10mm xmax but sensitivity of 93.6db at 2.831v/1m. Also its inductance seems kinda high but its a 2.5" VC and can handle 250wrms. and 8 of them would only run me $512. Hell Id even buy 12 of em!
Just an idea, let me know what you think. Maybe it makes more sense to stick with a lower number of drivers that are higher quality.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-560
Theres also these, just the 15 inch version of the previously posted drivers. Fs of 21 Hz, seems a bit better, but its got the same 2.5" VC which seems kinda small for a 15" driver.
What do ya think?
Theres also these, just the 15 inch version of the previously posted drivers. Fs of 21 Hz, seems a bit better, but its got the same 2.5" VC which seems kinda small for a 15" driver.
What do ya think?
How about 1 of these?
131.5dB continuous should allow you to eq flat to 25Hz for home use easily.
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x1
6 or 8 15's in sealed boxes should do you fine btw.
Rob.
Take care of your ears. Thats some pretty high listening levels.
131.5dB continuous should allow you to eq flat to 25Hz for home use easily.
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x1
6 or 8 15's in sealed boxes should do you fine btw.
Rob.
Take care of your ears. Thats some pretty high listening levels.
I really don't want to threadcrap, but listening at 120db for any length of time is pretty destructive to your hearing. If you want to still be able to hear conversations 10 years from now, turning it down a bit goes a long way!
Take Care,
Coldamp
Take Care,
Coldamp
Ok well maybe 120db is a bit extreme. However, my 4 Technics can get to 110db in my 25'x25'basement and sound pretty solid. Even when I had the single 18" sub at 105db it didnt have any impact whatsoever. So I just threw 120db out there, bit I guess its not. I guess I just need a few drivers putting out 110 to match the system so they can compete with the Technics. I'm not saying 110db is any better, but its not like I listen to music at 110db consistently. Maybe for one song or two and then I turn it back down to 90 or 95 for continuous listening. Once again, all these measurements are done on the Radioshack digital spl meter, and I dont know the accuracy of them, theyre simply a reference. Besides, all I tend to see on these forums that discuss audio are guys bragging about their new subwoofer/speaker with graphs of spl vs frequency.
And hey, I'm a dumb college kid who drives too fast, listens to music way too loud, and does stupid things. Go find me one who doesnt 🙂.
And hey, I'm a dumb college kid who drives too fast, listens to music way too loud, and does stupid things. Go find me one who doesnt 🙂.
I don't.
I drive the speed limit (or under it a little), listen at moderate levels, and don't do anything risky or stupid. I take pride in being an exception to that statement.
CARTRulz said:
That sensitivity is misleading, because a 4 ohm woofer is getting 4 watts at 2.83v. The whole point of measuring at 2.83v is to aproximate 1 watt with an 8ohm woofer. The 1w/m sensitivity is 6db less, or 87.6db, which is not impressive.
How about 4 of these?
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/assassin12specs.html
Dan
CARTRulz said:
What do you mean by impact ? To me that usually comes in the 60 - 120Hz region. What model are your technics?
Rob
Hey guys,
The Technics are SB-A70's. They are a solid 25 years old but probably sound better than almost any speaker I've heard first hand. They go as low as 30Hz up to 20,000KHz.
By impact I mean that The sub playing at 105db didnt add anything to the music. I have a Paradigm X-20 active crossover and I played with the frequencies and phases and still nothing. BUT, when the subwoofer was on by itself and you went up close to it, it was very loud. However once the Technics were raised up, the sub just melted away. However, it did seem to add some more rattling throughout the house, so I guess it was there, but the Technics just drowned it out completely. Kinda weird huh? Maybe I just need more than one driver to compete with the four 15inch woofers from the Technics.
Anyway, how about these drivers?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-301
Its rated at 97db 1w/1m at 8 ohms. Not much Xmax but I modeled it in WinISD in a 250liter enclosure tuned to 23 Hz and it doesnt look all that bad. Its not much of a HT sub but I think it will play real loud. I could go with 4 of those, I bet that would shake the house.
The Technics are SB-A70's. They are a solid 25 years old but probably sound better than almost any speaker I've heard first hand. They go as low as 30Hz up to 20,000KHz.
By impact I mean that The sub playing at 105db didnt add anything to the music. I have a Paradigm X-20 active crossover and I played with the frequencies and phases and still nothing. BUT, when the subwoofer was on by itself and you went up close to it, it was very loud. However once the Technics were raised up, the sub just melted away. However, it did seem to add some more rattling throughout the house, so I guess it was there, but the Technics just drowned it out completely. Kinda weird huh? Maybe I just need more than one driver to compete with the four 15inch woofers from the Technics.
Anyway, how about these drivers?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-301
Its rated at 97db 1w/1m at 8 ohms. Not much Xmax but I modeled it in WinISD in a 250liter enclosure tuned to 23 Hz and it doesnt look all that bad. Its not much of a HT sub but I think it will play real loud. I could go with 4 of those, I bet that would shake the house.
What did you think of the x1 at speakerplans that I linked to?
Personally I'd by second hand jbl over the peaveys btw.
How do you high pass the technics?
Edit - I think your x-20 can do a speaker level highpass on them ?
Rob.
I couldn't find much about your technics so have no idea of their performance.
Personally I'd by second hand jbl over the peaveys btw.
How do you high pass the technics?
Edit - I think your x-20 can do a speaker level highpass on them ?
Rob.
I couldn't find much about your technics so have no idea of their performance.
Why? Do you have bad experience with these drivers?
BS... if that statement were true you might just be the son of god
Rob, is that X1 plan based on wilson audio's X1, or does it just share the name? I'm thinking its just the same name because that looks to be a 6th order BP and wilson's X1 was a simple bass reflex IIRC. 30hz cutoff isnt incredibly impresive, but 131db might make up for the lack of true LF extension.
For the orginal threadstarter.... It doesnt sound to me like you're extremely picky on the SQ here... you just dont want something that degrades what you already have and adds some Serious low end. If your technics can go down to 30hz(and I doubt they can do that -3db if they're 25 years old) then yes you probably need something that will put out at least 120db peakSPL.
I dont think you would be dissatisfied with a few of those quattro woofers from dayton. I'd get at least 2 of the 15" version or 4 of the 12". My pick would be the 15" simply because you increase sensitivity and swept volume for only a small additional price. Enclosure size requirements will be greater however..
You can go with something of higher quality, but I dont think you're going to marvel over the difference too much😉
""Why? Do you have bad experience with these drivers?""
I just stated what I'd do personally - take it with a pinch of salt.
""Rob, is that X1 plan based on wilson audio's X1, or does it just share the name? I'm thinking its just the same name because that looks to be a 6th order BP and wilson's X1 was a simple bass reflex IIRC. 30hz cutoff isnt incredibly impresive, but 131db might make up for the lack of true LF extension""
You just answered your own question.
Rob
I just stated what I'd do personally - take it with a pinch of salt.
""Rob, is that X1 plan based on wilson audio's X1, or does it just share the name? I'm thinking its just the same name because that looks to be a 6th order BP and wilson's X1 was a simple bass reflex IIRC. 30hz cutoff isnt incredibly impresive, but 131db might make up for the lack of true LF extension""
You just answered your own question.
Rob
GM modelled the Quatro for me in a thread a few pages back. With a straight line of 14 feet and a CSA of 1xSD it was flat down to about 18 hz at about 92 or 93 db at 1 watt. I purchased a Quatro based on that simulation.
It's a big box but if you live in the US you could make that box for about $150 (driver and US shipping included), double that to do it in style. Make one for each corner and you should hear them.
It's a big box but if you live in the US you could make that box for about $150 (driver and US shipping included), double that to do it in style. Make one for each corner and you should hear them.
BassAwdyO,
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm leaning towards that Peavy due to its incredibly high sensitivity. I'll probably throw each of them in a huge sonotube so I can try to turn them into HT subs. I know I'm not doing it properly, cause if I was Id probably have a few 18 inch Tempests in sonotubes, but I just don't have that kind of money right now. But I figure two of those Peavys with a high power QSC or Crown amp should do pretty well, and with 800WRMS each I don't think I'll be blowing them anytime soon!
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm leaning towards that Peavy due to its incredibly high sensitivity. I'll probably throw each of them in a huge sonotube so I can try to turn them into HT subs. I know I'm not doing it properly, cause if I was Id probably have a few 18 inch Tempests in sonotubes, but I just don't have that kind of money right now. But I figure two of those Peavys with a high power QSC or Crown amp should do pretty well, and with 800WRMS each I don't think I'll be blowing them anytime soon!
owdi said:
P=(V^2)/R
P/R= V^2
Your on the right idea but but your math is wrong. A 4ohm driver will see 2W at 2.83V not 4W this speakers sensitivity is ~90db 1w/m.
People look at sensitivity to much for subs. You look at frequency response first. If you want a speaker to be efficient go High fs, Large VAS, low Qes just don't expect much bass
Efficiency Calculator
So Its looking like that Peavey Low Rider 18 in a 450 liter Sonotube tuned to 25 Hz. However, even with a 12 inch diameter port thats .541 meters in length, I'm getting a vent mach of .08. Will this make noise? I have no idea how that much air moving through a 12 inch port could make any noise, but the vent mach is still astoundingly high. Anyway, let me know what you think.
In my experience vent speed can be higher(without audible chuffing) when the tuning is higher. If you tune below 30hz keeping vent speed low becomes more of a priority because the ears are less sensitive to the fundemental as opposed to the chuffing noise which is in a more sensitive area of the ear's spectrum.
A 8" port would probably be sufficient, but I'd suggest a slot port. ~.5meters for vent length is not unreasonable at all!
A 8" port would probably be sufficient, but I'd suggest a slot port. ~.5meters for vent length is not unreasonable at all!
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