Sorry for the belated reply, Zia. I'm not talking crazy levels. 90-95 db peaks, 80 db average listening level. Even at these levels, you can clearly hear the reduced distortion with larger cone drivers (and very obviously with horns). Especially congested stuff, like say Floyd for example, is so much better. Music gets this lifelike quality (as godzilla says), little nuances are revealed so easily.
And then you go back to little 4" FR drivers, as good as they are, makes you think, "Oh! What was I listening to!"
Not when they're crossed to dedicated WB woofers, as noted above. Whereupon the compromises in the midband & HF of large wideband drivers becomes extremely (and depressingly) obvious. Alas. Although like GM, I wouldn't say no to an LC1A in a suitable load & with suitable support. But then, the engineering in those units was of a very high order.
This is what I'm trying to say is not true. In my experience, even with support on the bottom end, the midband distortion will be higher for a 4" driver compared to an 8" driver. Not to mention the lack of a big sound, which the bigger drivers almost always produce.
Compromises in the midband and HF? What compromises? The HF of even a 4" driver is quite hashy. None of the full range drivers can match the treble quality of a dedicated tweeter. Some may do a better job, but it will still be hashy (full of resonances). If anybody needs proof, take a look at the published response of any fostex 4" driver and compare it with an 8" AN. They are both equally bad. The only reason we (or atleast I) accept it is because it is coherent, and is away from the main program, the midrange.
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true, true.
But I see 6db single capped tweeter (up past 5khz) as a very valid option.
Like Gemme audio tanto.
Gemme Audio Tanto Review
or the Boenicke audio
6moons audio reviews: Boenicke Audio Model W20 SE
or tonian acoustics
Tonian Acoustic
reviews
Norman
But I see 6db single capped tweeter (up past 5khz) as a very valid option.
Like Gemme audio tanto.
Gemme Audio Tanto Review
or the Boenicke audio
6moons audio reviews: Boenicke Audio Model W20 SE
or tonian acoustics
Tonian Acoustic
reviews
Norman
Thats exactly how I run an FT17H - I was really happy with my large FR driver's sound - but that was because I had gotten used to it and had forgotten what I was missing. As soon as it was wired in the HF I head everything I'd want.
I'd expect all large FR drivers could use it, unless they are DC like the 15inch AN driver
I have the AN cast frame 12 and there is no need for a tweeter .
Listening with the grilles off the 2.8 cabinets nets a mite better treble response.
Do they provide chest pounding bass ? No , but they provide accurate bass and I really like the phase coherent sound, it's pleasing even off axis.
Listening with the grilles off the 2.8 cabinets nets a mite better treble response.
Do they provide chest pounding bass ? No , but they provide accurate bass and I really like the phase coherent sound, it's pleasing even off axis.
Again interesting points Scottmoose and Ra7 - each solution comes with their own drawbacks.
In my brief (nearly one year) experience with FRs, a bigger driver is more effortless and dynamic. They sound "big", specially with the right sort of cabinet. Smaller ones can be more finessed and nimble, give more 3D, but used solely as FR, run out sooner on heavy/complex stuff - some drivers earlier than others. Adding a helper woofer to a smallish FR does help a lot, but then there is the potential complexity of bi-amping.
I tried a 3 way system again for fun a few days back; not that it was lacking much in detail or low end oomph... somehow the musicality was missing and felt relieved after powering down... the lack of that one track feeling. Still, I would love to try out a really good tweeter in a good 2 way/3 way some time and experience the headroom. Lot of cheap/mainstream tweeters I've heard are quite unpleasant and less finessed than good FR units.
Still haven't what I'm looking for.
-Zia
In my brief (nearly one year) experience with FRs, a bigger driver is more effortless and dynamic. They sound "big", specially with the right sort of cabinet. Smaller ones can be more finessed and nimble, give more 3D, but used solely as FR, run out sooner on heavy/complex stuff - some drivers earlier than others. Adding a helper woofer to a smallish FR does help a lot, but then there is the potential complexity of bi-amping.
I tried a 3 way system again for fun a few days back; not that it was lacking much in detail or low end oomph... somehow the musicality was missing and felt relieved after powering down... the lack of that one track feeling. Still, I would love to try out a really good tweeter in a good 2 way/3 way some time and experience the headroom. Lot of cheap/mainstream tweeters I've heard are quite unpleasant and less finessed than good FR units.
Still haven't what I'm looking for.
-Zia
Seems to me there's something also about coupling to more air that makes for the effortlessness, or at least faking more of it with little drivers. Pipes seem to get me part of the way. Where and how the things terminate really seems to make a difference.
They can never really do what the big drivers do that way for me--at least not what I've tried so far--but they can sort of "park right up next to it". Maybe it's just because they're lighting-up room modes, who knows. Size can trade for some efficiency too so maybe that's a small part as well.
I do get the other point that has been commented on, too. There just is something that the big drivers do that's as plain as night and day, though, and it's quickly pretty clear with, for example, little jazz piano combos. You can quickly tell on piano or even some stringed things. Equal part curse and revelation. Not that little drivers can't give goose-bumps on that stuff--they can and do--but they never sound "as right" on pianos to me as a big driver. Scale is maybe part of it, but it's not that "they are here" big horn thing, either. Me and audio discussion...not so good.
They can never really do what the big drivers do that way for me--at least not what I've tried so far--but they can sort of "park right up next to it". Maybe it's just because they're lighting-up room modes, who knows. Size can trade for some efficiency too so maybe that's a small part as well.
I do get the other point that has been commented on, too. There just is something that the big drivers do that's as plain as night and day, though, and it's quickly pretty clear with, for example, little jazz piano combos. You can quickly tell on piano or even some stringed things. Equal part curse and revelation. Not that little drivers can't give goose-bumps on that stuff--they can and do--but they never sound "as right" on pianos to me as a big driver. Scale is maybe part of it, but it's not that "they are here" big horn thing, either. Me and audio discussion...not so good.
Disclaimer - in my case bigger FR means 6.5" drivers, small means 4 inch or smaller. Also have to admit that the FR experience has been immensely satisfying despite maybe a slight lacking in the lowest octave or in some cases highish SPLs.
-Zia
lol, I have a an10 sitting never used in its box in the back room (like 2 years now).
The 15 has some hash past 1khz, but overall looks to be a better graph.
And a couple of people have liked them (run wide open, unlike the 12") over at audiocircle.
I'm trying to finish a few projects b4 buying more drivers that may sit in storage for years. Then again, I need intelligibility for watching movies. It's not easy getting dialog when running straight off the left/right connectors on the back of my blue-ray player (no surround, not even stereo), especially with a non full range driver (2khz or even a 750hz crossover point).
Norman
The 15 has some hash past 1khz, but overall looks to be a better graph.
And a couple of people have liked them (run wide open, unlike the 12") over at audiocircle.
I'm trying to finish a few projects b4 buying more drivers that may sit in storage for years. Then again, I need intelligibility for watching movies. It's not easy getting dialog when running straight off the left/right connectors on the back of my blue-ray player (no surround, not even stereo), especially with a non full range driver (2khz or even a 750hz crossover point).
Norman
I think a large driver seems to give a life sized point source signal launch. I'd heard a truck box, 15" with piezo. Sure it was not perfect, but it had a specialness to it. It's a hard thing to describe. Not everyone hears it, nor is it a simple wrong or right. Yes, a 15" is not the size of an orchestra, but voices seemed approximate sized. The clear other end of the spectrum is that now when I listen to panel speakers, it sounds to me like I'm listening to a 6' tall guitar. I think when you listen to a larger driver, you enjoy it for the sheer cone area and forgive the high end.
I think with a full range 15", a supertweeter helps the speed, or the transient of the signal. Again, up to the listener preferences, music etc. I think that if you are using a speaker for video, you may not want to go way up high, breaking glass can sound painfull.
Most liked adding a ribbon tweeter to the jordan years back, even when it wasn't time aligned (6db x-over). We seem to like our reproduced music crispier than real life. I'm sure the off axis response also affects what we hear.
Norman
I think with a full range 15", a supertweeter helps the speed, or the transient of the signal. Again, up to the listener preferences, music etc. I think that if you are using a speaker for video, you may not want to go way up high, breaking glass can sound painfull.
Most liked adding a ribbon tweeter to the jordan years back, even when it wasn't time aligned (6db x-over). We seem to like our reproduced music crispier than real life. I'm sure the off axis response also affects what we hear.
Norman
It makes sense that a tweeter would help that way with speed, I hear it I think on my 3 ways compared to my 8" fullrangers, I still prefer the full rangers though. I am curious however about wether and how they can have an effect above the audible range. They make these tweeters now that go up to 60 mega hz, I wonder if you'd notice they were there if you set them to kick in at 20 mega hz say? Well outside my range.
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