Been browsing various sites, forums, YT vids etc, fancy trying a DIY build but not confident enough to start from scratch, so I'd prefer to build from some exisiting design that's know to work well, uses drivers that are available and has been built by more than just the designer!
I'd like to try a transmission line type floor stander.
I have a 5x8 metre room with a large lantern roof (so no flat ceiling), stone floor, lots of windows, no curtains, so quite a live room.
I'm running a Pink Triangle deck, rega arm, Exposure XXV integrated amp and currently a pair of Monitor Audio 2 way floor standers (metal dome tweeter and woofer, oddly there's no model number on them!).
The cabinetry side of things is no problem for me, but there are just so many options when looking for a build to try. Music is all sorts of rock pop stuff from the 80's to now. No classical. So looking for a bit more bass authority without just adding a sub.
Not looking to spend megabucks on my first build, but obviously want something that sounds better than my M.A.'s!
Any suggestions?
There are loads of options on https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/journal_klang_und_ton_en.htm and I've looked at Paul Carmody's site, Troels site and Zaph Audio. But as I said it would be nice to get a tried and tested design to try first, that uses currently available drivers, available in the UK ideally!
Cheers!
I'd like to try a transmission line type floor stander.
I have a 5x8 metre room with a large lantern roof (so no flat ceiling), stone floor, lots of windows, no curtains, so quite a live room.
I'm running a Pink Triangle deck, rega arm, Exposure XXV integrated amp and currently a pair of Monitor Audio 2 way floor standers (metal dome tweeter and woofer, oddly there's no model number on them!).
The cabinetry side of things is no problem for me, but there are just so many options when looking for a build to try. Music is all sorts of rock pop stuff from the 80's to now. No classical. So looking for a bit more bass authority without just adding a sub.
Not looking to spend megabucks on my first build, but obviously want something that sounds better than my M.A.'s!
Any suggestions?
There are loads of options on https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/journal_klang_und_ton_en.htm and I've looked at Paul Carmody's site, Troels site and Zaph Audio. But as I said it would be nice to get a tried and tested design to try first, that uses currently available drivers, available in the UK ideally!
Cheers!
Thanks Galu, my post seemed to gather a bt of tumbleweed! I'm sure I could hear a distant bell tolling too....
The Wilmslow kit is a bit out of my price range...
Anyway, what's peoples thoughts on IPL kits? They seem to be a little less pricey, but without knowing what woofer they are supplying its hard to tell.
The ribbon tweeters are 120 euros each, so I guess an 8" kevlar cone woofer might be another 150 euros.
The Wilmslow kit is a bit out of my price range...
Anyway, what's peoples thoughts on IPL kits? They seem to be a little less pricey, but without knowing what woofer they are supplying its hard to tell.
The ribbon tweeters are 120 euros each, so I guess an 8" kevlar cone woofer might be another 150 euros.
use google translate
https://translate.google.com/
Peerless Woofers - surface mount
Peerless 830657 & HiVi X1 or Seas 27TFF
Edo's Low Budget MLTL
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6227
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=15285
Crossover
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=33381&mode=view
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=33383&mode=view
Cabinet
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=36962&mode=view
from
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6853&start=125
------------
Peter Blix- 830656 MLTL
https://www.audiotinker.com/support-files/mltl_peerless_830656.pdf
--------
Commercial offering
http://iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_acoustics_____transmission_l.htm
https://translate.google.com/
Peerless Woofers - surface mount
Peerless 830657 & HiVi X1 or Seas 27TFF
Edo's Low Budget MLTL
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6227
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=15285
Crossover
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=33381&mode=view
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=33383&mode=view
Cabinet
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download/file.php?id=36962&mode=view
from
https://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6853&start=125
------------
Peter Blix- 830656 MLTL
https://www.audiotinker.com/support-files/mltl_peerless_830656.pdf
--------
Commercial offering
http://iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_acoustics_____transmission_l.htm
There are just so many.
My personal experience is much more single driver FR systems (a lot of really good ML-TLs), and WAWs (woofer Assisted Widebad) where the typical tweeter is replaced with a good FR replaces a takes the place of the tweeter, and moves the XO octaves lower (250-450 Hz or so) trading some extreme top (maybe) for much better cross-over cohesion since the wavelenths at the XO point become long enuff that the driver spacing stops becoming a probelm (one of the evils of a typical midBass/tweeter XO).
My room is of similar size, the roof is sloping, floors are mostly wood and ceramic tiles, i don’t have as many windows as i would like and minimal curtains.
A non-flat roof is a very significant contributor for reduction in room issues, and the significant size and lots of windows should move bass standing wave issues lower in frequency. But it also probably measn you need more bass capability.
How much budget do you have?
I will note that the 2 WAWs i provide plans for, in one case the woofer is NLA, and the other the woofer hard to get outsdie North American and likely not big enuff.
This one:
55w/channel AB amplifier. One of the many small UK amp makers that has always been of interest but i have never seen & heard. You should have plenty of power but you do want to be careful of the sensitivity a bit.
dave
My personal experience is much more single driver FR systems (a lot of really good ML-TLs), and WAWs (woofer Assisted Widebad) where the typical tweeter is replaced with a good FR replaces a takes the place of the tweeter, and moves the XO octaves lower (250-450 Hz or so) trading some extreme top (maybe) for much better cross-over cohesion since the wavelenths at the XO point become long enuff that the driver spacing stops becoming a probelm (one of the evils of a typical midBass/tweeter XO).
My room is of similar size, the roof is sloping, floors are mostly wood and ceramic tiles, i don’t have as many windows as i would like and minimal curtains.
A non-flat roof is a very significant contributor for reduction in room issues, and the significant size and lots of windows should move bass standing wave issues lower in frequency. But it also probably measn you need more bass capability.
How much budget do you have?
I will note that the 2 WAWs i provide plans for, in one case the woofer is NLA, and the other the woofer hard to get outsdie North American and likely not big enuff.
This one:
55w/channel AB amplifier. One of the many small UK amp makers that has always been of interest but i have never seen & heard. You should have plenty of power but you do want to be careful of the sensitivity a bit.
dave
Dave, (AKA Planet10), thanks for your reply.... Yes that's the amp I have. Old but I still like it!
Budget, well I guess I want to play a bit first with something like a TL design rather than commit a grand on drivers and find out it sounds boomy, tiresome or some other trait that makes me want to plug my Monitor Audios back in.
The sheer number of designs out there is vast and I can't really see the wood for the trees. I think its also interesting that there doesn't seem to be 'go to' design for a certain budget. I did read a long thread on a 'DIY Audio hive mind' speaker design project that went on for a long time and of course, is now out of date!
I guess speakers are akin to musical instruments and each has its own sound, which can please or annoy an individual listener, despite what the measurements are saying, so there is no optimal design.
There's also the various changes of fasion that Hi-Fi goes through and from what I can see, TL's are a little out of fashion, subs are in but something about TL's just seems to pique my interest, as do some of the single driver designs I've come across... Oddly, open baffle speakers do nothing for me despite never having listend to one!
Maybe there is, out there somewhere, a really good speaker design that utilises drivers that are not mega bucks and where the end result is greater than the sum of the parts.... (Is it the Dutch design mentioned above?)
Right ramble mode off, its Friday night and everyone else has gone to bed....
Oh and I love the look of FR speaker designs but I have no idea if they'll have the bass power I'd like? WAW? thats an new one on me, so I shall go look into that rabbit hole too...
Budget, well I guess I want to play a bit first with something like a TL design rather than commit a grand on drivers and find out it sounds boomy, tiresome or some other trait that makes me want to plug my Monitor Audios back in.
The sheer number of designs out there is vast and I can't really see the wood for the trees. I think its also interesting that there doesn't seem to be 'go to' design for a certain budget. I did read a long thread on a 'DIY Audio hive mind' speaker design project that went on for a long time and of course, is now out of date!
I guess speakers are akin to musical instruments and each has its own sound, which can please or annoy an individual listener, despite what the measurements are saying, so there is no optimal design.
There's also the various changes of fasion that Hi-Fi goes through and from what I can see, TL's are a little out of fashion, subs are in but something about TL's just seems to pique my interest, as do some of the single driver designs I've come across... Oddly, open baffle speakers do nothing for me despite never having listend to one!
Maybe there is, out there somewhere, a really good speaker design that utilises drivers that are not mega bucks and where the end result is greater than the sum of the parts.... (Is it the Dutch design mentioned above?)
Right ramble mode off, its Friday night and everyone else has gone to bed....
Oh and I love the look of FR speaker designs but I have no idea if they'll have the bass power I'd like? WAW? thats an new one on me, so I shall go look into that rabbit hole too...
Build a simple FR. A set of Suoer Pensils would likely work well. They were designed for a room similar to your in NZ. But there is a broad choice. CHN-110 is really inexpensive and well behaved option. @waxx has done a goos TL and i am sure Scott @Scottmoose has done some as well. Give you a good handle on what a TL can do and as a side effect of keeping the first experiement pretty painless £££-wise.
Yes, inmdeed. But a better situation than 3 decades ago when there were but a few saplings growing on a prairie. You are smart to start smaller, with each build (a diy speaker builder rarely stops at. asingle build) you learn somethign about speakers building, speakers, your room, and you.
Almost every tower bass reflex loudspeaker is actually an ML-TL in disguise. TLs are also big & heavy (typically) and expensive to ship … especially impactful who skimp on box material (ie use MDF) and th distributor and dealer (and the punter off the street in the end) pay the shipping. Since Y2K and the apperance of acurate quarter-wave modelers (ie TL, voigt, horns) a whole new surge of TL designs have come from diyers. Baby Labs, microTowers on the small end up to huge monsters.
When you have a better idea of where you are and what questions to ask, pick something interesting and jump. Beware analysis paralysis… you can try to absorb the disparate views and experiences of many members, but you will just get confused without knowing more.
Here ar esketches for the Pensil and a tall one (different traget alignments).
If you end up likeing teh sound but just need more there is a twin one and even a quad (would need to stand way out in the room (1970s EPI Super Tower the inspiration)
It has been show, (ref Toole, Geddes) that mulltiple woofers below 80-100 Hz are the most effective way to deal with the typical bass room modes that come with shoe box shaped rooms. You have a vault, big, and lots of windows to tame the bass right off the bat so the experiment of a TL that hits 25-30 Hz can tell you a lot about your room.
dave
richardtheboffin,
You mentioned that you like rock, 80s pop. In my experience you will enjoy the bass (punch and slam) that a good woofer can provide.
Here is a well documented FAST/WAW design in a Transmission Line cabinet for your reference. The design uses an 8" woofer:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...t-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-99#post-6016550
How the speaker looks is all black paint:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-195#post-7339183
The RS225 driver is (very) well regarded and you will see that many experienced and respected speaker designers in the DIY community have used it. I checked Amazon UK and it is available.
You can build the speaker with different choices of mid-tweeters, and there cross-overs are a a bit different for each variant. Here you go with a variant done for the Vifa TC9FD:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-196#post-7390114
Another design that might suit your needs for rock and pop, and one which does not need much of amplifier power due to the higher sensitivity (94 db):
https://www.speakerdesignworks.com/copy-of-anthologys-2
You have a generously sized room, and more cone area helps for bigger rooms, and the higher sensitivity will come in handy for your amp. 🙂
You mentioned that you like rock, 80s pop. In my experience you will enjoy the bass (punch and slam) that a good woofer can provide.
Here is a well documented FAST/WAW design in a Transmission Line cabinet for your reference. The design uses an 8" woofer:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...t-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-99#post-6016550
How the speaker looks is all black paint:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-195#post-7339183
The RS225 driver is (very) well regarded and you will see that many experienced and respected speaker designers in the DIY community have used it. I checked Amazon UK and it is available.
You can build the speaker with different choices of mid-tweeters, and there cross-overs are a a bit different for each variant. Here you go with a variant done for the Vifa TC9FD:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-waw-ref-monitor.273524/page-196#post-7390114
Another design that might suit your needs for rock and pop, and one which does not need much of amplifier power due to the higher sensitivity (94 db):
https://www.speakerdesignworks.com/copy-of-anthologys-2
You have a generously sized room, and more cone area helps for bigger rooms, and the higher sensitivity will come in handy for your amp. 🙂
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I have a typo on the sensitivity for the Uluwatu - it should be 92dB - requesting Dave (or someone from the Moderation Team) to make the necessary correction to my post, and delete this post.
Another mainland Europe option here. Again, use translate if your German is lacking. Alexander has quite a few other well-documented designs on his site, worth checking.
Thanks zman, yes the RS225 does crop up a lot and looks like a good candidate, budget wise too. Funnily enough, I found the design you linked last night when looking into the FAST WAW rabbit hole! That thread is 200 plus pages long!
Hopefully more than one person has built it!
I'll get reading some more, thanks again.
Edo's Low Budget MLTL, LBVS more info
use Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
Damping, port, etc
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15285
use Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
Damping, port, etc
https://zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15285
Each of the SBA drivers used in the Uluwatu has a surface area of 87cm2 - so 6 of them will have 522 cm2. which is in the same ball park as a twelve inch woofer.
I built a pair with the Visaton B80 as the mid-tweeter, and subjectively found them good sounding and neutral. Specially the low frequency performance was very satisfactory in my ~250 sq ft room. However, my existing speakers had Hiquphon OW1 tweeters, and I felt that the B80 (and for that matter any other wide-band driver) did not have the same presence or smoothness to my ears... Maybe the Scanspeak 10F would sound different, but I did not have that to test. I ended up doing my own 3 way design using the RS225 as a bass driver, a Revelator 15/8530k as the mid-bass, and the OW1 for HF duty.
I find the 3 way more to my liking, and I feel that the 5.25 inch Revelator gives me more weight and punch on drum hits - but that is my subjective opinion and I am likely to be biased. 🙂 The RSS225 is now in a 37 ~liter bass reflex cabinet, and does plenty good in that alignment too. It likely does a little better in a TL/MLTL, but I needed to get the height of the bass cabinet down to a certain level for the 3 way, and ended up with a ~26" tall cabinet for the RS225. Speakers involve choosing a set of compromises, and we need to choose the ones that work for us.
-that’s quite a limitation.
Not a T-line: a few different versions based on midbass driver selection (and resulting price difference)
https://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_index.htm
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-elsinore-project-thread.97043/
from OP post #1,
"I'd like to try a transmission line type floor stander."
Here's some more $$$:
MLTL - Mass Loaded Transmission Line
page 12
https://kupdf.net/download/klang-ton-2012-03-pdf_58c000b2e12e897608add375_pdf
page 16 Bernd Timmermanns CT197
https://kupdf.net/download/klang-ton-2006-1-cheap-trick_58c00ce1e12e892434add375_pdf
Paul Kittinger
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/balmora/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/clarino/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/brillante/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/amaroso/
Marty Hafenbreadl
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/the-copper-project/
Donhighend
D.A.U
use Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=6034
https://www.der-akustische-untergrund.de/
-----
TL - Transmission Line
Martin King
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project13/Project13.html
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project13/Satori_TL_Design_Documentation.pdf
Seas A26 Devore Style Build- there's some crossovers in this thread
http://p10hifi.net/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/classicTL-revisited-WD.pdf
post #372
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-a26-devore-style-build.369124/page-19
------
https://www2.audiokit.it/ENG/Frames/Introduction1.htm
https://www2.audiokit.it/ITAENG/KitDiffusori/trasmiss/MOREL/Lin162-1.gif
? D.I.Y
https://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ripper.htm
?
https://winboxsimu-de.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
?
Aspen Vsonic's-Commercial
http://aksaonline.com/
OLD-Peerless 830884
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70732.0
post#31
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-aksa-the-saksa-85.294346/page-2#post-4790530
SoundBlab TQWT
------
Cheapest are Fullrange & Peerless post #4
"I'd like to try a transmission line type floor stander."
Here's some more $$$:
MLTL - Mass Loaded Transmission Line
page 12
https://kupdf.net/download/klang-ton-2012-03-pdf_58c000b2e12e897608add375_pdf
page 16 Bernd Timmermanns CT197
https://kupdf.net/download/klang-ton-2006-1-cheap-trick_58c00ce1e12e892434add375_pdf
Paul Kittinger
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/balmora/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/clarino/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/brillante/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/amaroso/
Marty Hafenbreadl
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/the-copper-project/
Donhighend
D.A.U
use Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=6034
https://www.der-akustische-untergrund.de/
-----
TL - Transmission Line
Martin King
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project13/Project13.html
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project13/Satori_TL_Design_Documentation.pdf
Seas A26 Devore Style Build- there's some crossovers in this thread
http://p10hifi.net/tlinespeakers/FAL/box-plans/classicTL-revisited-WD.pdf
post #372
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/seas-a26-devore-style-build.369124/page-19
------
https://www2.audiokit.it/ENG/Frames/Introduction1.htm
https://www2.audiokit.it/ITAENG/KitDiffusori/trasmiss/MOREL/Lin162-1.gif
? D.I.Y
https://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ripper.htm
?
https://winboxsimu-de.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
?
Aspen Vsonic's-Commercial
http://aksaonline.com/
OLD-Peerless 830884
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70732.0
post#31
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-aksa-the-saksa-85.294346/page-2#post-4790530
SoundBlab TQWT
Cheapest are Fullrange & Peerless post #4
Last edited:
old 1995
OA-Transient II-Ronald Koot from SpeakerBuuilding.com
Scan-Speak 18W/8542-05 Vifa D27TG-35-06
https://web.archive.org/web/20101129145208/http://speakerbuilding.com/content/1033/
------
not a TL
Decware Horn
Model DNA2
Size: 41" H x 10" W x 17.5" D
(2 each) SilverFlute W20RC38-04 , HiVi RT1C-A, 3.9 ufd cap
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/simple-silver-flutes-2-way.232612/
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1515446807/5
https://www.decware.com/newsite/DNA2.html
Audiopur RT-7004 a cheaper substitute for HiVi?
try Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=8442
OA-Transient II-Ronald Koot from SpeakerBuuilding.com
Scan-Speak 18W/8542-05 Vifa D27TG-35-06
https://web.archive.org/web/20101129145208/http://speakerbuilding.com/content/1033/
------
not a TL
Decware Horn
Model DNA2
Size: 41" H x 10" W x 17.5" D
(2 each) SilverFlute W20RC38-04 , HiVi RT1C-A, 3.9 ufd cap
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/simple-silver-flutes-2-way.232612/
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1515446807/5
https://www.decware.com/newsite/DNA2.html
Audiopur RT-7004 a cheaper substitute for HiVi?
try Google Translate
https://translate.google.com/
https://www.donhighend.de/?page_id=8442
Last edited:
Thanks for all the suggestions! So many to look at.
I'm now committed to the XRK971 FAST/WAW build! Just about to cut the holes in the baffle and start gluing!
I'm now committed to the XRK971 FAST/WAW build! Just about to cut the holes in the baffle and start gluing!