Looking for some solutions to low cost-high performance Subs

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#21
I am looking for a low cost high quality (i.e. low boom and accurate) sub to replace my DECWARE 10 sub for a bit now. I will probably build this out of 1" MDF with no braces and see how it works.

I have Bob Brines 1600 MLTL's for fronts with Fostex's right now and want something more accurate for music. It seems like the bass sounds the same for all the music I play - granted it is alot of drum and base but there should be some variation.


Matt.
 
#22
Specs are like personal stats, they tell us nothing about tonal value or character.

36 26 38 and fluff for brians.

The best thing to do is listen to the speakers in questions,

and buy what makes you happy.

You will not go wrong with this formula.
 
#24
The 12" sub driver market has just got a bit more competitive IMO. The HSU sub looks like a very capable driver, however for the money I think you can do better. One of the most appealing new contenders appears to be the Ascendant Audio Atlas 12. Most subs in its price range aren't in the same leage when you look at the XBL motor design. IIRC it costs only $140. While it doesn't have the excursion of the Adire Sadhara, it's much cheaper and runs on a typical mid powered plate amp, so it's a great value for money quality sub. TC sounds have also began selling to diyers apparently, and I have heard similar prices for the TC2+ which is similar to the AV12 from AE speakers but with a shorting ring, less excursion and slightly different parameters.
 
#27
the link to the acsendant atlas woofer is what.

i checked the tangband web site for prices before i asked.





12" Subwoofer - Top of the line
Peak Power Handling: 2200 watts per pair / 1100 watts each
RMS Power Handling: 900 watts per pair / 450 watts each
Dual 6 ohm voice coils
100 oz. Magnet
2.5" Kapton Voice Coil
Fs: 20.9 Hz
VAS: 5.73 Cubic ft.
XMAX: 11.1mm
SPL: 88dB
1-year Manufacturer's warranty
this woofer any good ?
 
#29
drivers

most 12" bass drivers have a considerable mass to the cone. its importabt to get the right paramenters AND a low mass cone. None other than Dr Bruce Edgar states of his sealed sub:
" Because of the low moving mass, the sub remains very musical till you cross over at 80-100Hz. I've tried other car subs, but the high moving mass makes them dead above 40Hz."
This is also true of most home subs. Once you have responce to below30Hz. the most critical criteria is the responce at XO where the cone of the other driver will be smaller and Much lighter. This is why some subs (most?) have trouble integrating WELL with clean "fast" mid/FR drivers
 
#31
THOR - even if that is true (mms being the most important thing in a sub after sub 30hz fs), it doesnt say much for the HSU woofer as its mms is not anything special. Here's the moving mass figures for some popular 12" drivers:

Hsu 12" mms = 159g

Adire Shiva mms = 125g

Ascendant Atlas 12 mms = 119g

Peerless XLS 12 mms = 166.3

Dayton 12" Quattro mms = 104g

Dayton 12" DVC mms = 171g

NHT 1259 mms = 128g

The fact that the Peerless XLS has a relatively high mms, and is still considered one of the best 12" drivers sound quality wise tells me there is a lot more to consider than low moving mass.
 
#33
most 12" bass drivers have a considerable mass to the cone. its importabt to get the right paramenters AND a low mass cone. None other than Dr Bruce Edgar states of his sealed sub:
" Because of the low moving mass, the sub remains very musical till you cross over at 80-100Hz. I've tried other car subs, but the high moving mass makes them dead above 40Hz."
Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with this, I think mms alone is meaningless as it is one parameter that must be considered along with others to actually tell us anything.

F=ma

From this we can see mass alone does not tell us anything. Take two cones with vastly different mms, and all other things being equal (which they won't be of course), they can both have the same acceleration given proportional force.

Adire has a good technical paper on this topic under their technical section, entitled "woofer speed" where it is shown that LeVC (voice coil inductance) is a better indicator of transient response.

Now if this is true, then the Ascendant Audio driver looks very appealing. Comparins LeVC of a range of subwoofers:

Atlas 12/15 - 0.86 mH
Avalanch 15/18 - 2.4 mH
Adire Tumult - 4.2 mH
Adire Koda drivers 10/12/15 - 1 mH
Shiva - 2.12 mH
Tempest - 2.9 mH
XLS - 4.2 mH
AV12 - 2.95 mH

What is surprising is that the inductance on the XLS and Tumult, two very well regarded drivers, is quite high. With the Tumult, it's expected in a way due to the extreme excursion. Considering it's xmax, it's quite low. The XLS on the other hand, has less xmax than any of the other drivers.

What is interesting is that the lower xmax XBL2 drivers have very low inductance, and it might be worth considering using multiples of them in preference to a single larger xmax driver.

Now taking Thor's argument concerning the difficulty in matching subs to midbass drivers at the crossover point, lets look at the LeVC of some midbass drivers:

Scan Speak 7" 18W/8545K00 - 0.4 mH
SS 8" kevlar 21W/8554-00 - 0.2 mH (used in Linkwitz Phoenix IIRC)
Seas Excel 6.5" - 0.32 mH
Seas Excel 8" - 0.5 mH
Peerless HDS 6.5" - 1.2 mH
Vifa P17 - 0.55 mH

It's interesting to note that Linkwitz uses a midbass driver in the Phoenix with a very low inductance with the XLS which is quite high. Then he switches to an Excel driver with a higher inductance, and considers it an improvment. Obviously other factors are at work here.

It would be very interesting to see from actual experiments if the inductance of the drivers relates to how well the sub and midbass will integrate in terms of transient response. Is it best to just go for the lowest inductance possible, or is it better to aim as low as possible but also aim to match them? (Rhetorical question)

so what you are saying is there is no diamond in the rough or great deal subwoofer ? ... and specs are not relavent
Click to expand...

The subwoofer market is quite competitive and there is no clear winner. There might be for a given set of guidelines, but those guidelines won't suit everyone. Specs are not relevant? Of course they are!

how does this speaker do with software ?
Click to expand...

Perhaps you might put in some groudwork yourself before asking us to model it for you. It's not difficult to download WinISD and put some numbers in.
 
#35
WinISD is very easy. The Pro beta version is a lot more powerful and it's what I use. The only real difficulty is if you have to enter TS parameters, as it doesn't accept values usually that the manufacturer enter in. You have to let it calculate some of the values, and let the less critical ones sit as not quite right.
 
#36
paulspencer said:
WinISD is very easy. The Pro beta version is a lot more powerful and it's what I use. The only real difficulty is if you have to enter TS parameters, as it doesn't accept values usually that the manufacturer enter in. You have to let it calculate some of the values, and let the less critical ones sit as not quite right.
Click to expand...
hi paul, i have an atlas 12 due to arrive tomorrow. i'll let you know how it sounds. so far, i've heard nothing but excelent reports on them. crippledchicken


😉
 
#38
#39
Zuki,

You might want to start a new thread if you want to discuss this any more, but just some quick comments. First, a 10" driver with a moderate xmax (11mm) will give you fairly moderate output and limited extension in a sealed box. Sealed box volume is not so critical. I would put it in a ~1cu ft box and use a linkwitz transform, but I would aim for an F3 around 30 Hz or you will give up too much output. I would also play around with sims and see if you can get a decent vented design in a reasonable size (say 50L). With a vented design you should be able to get it down to 20 - 25 Hz. Not being familiar with the driver I can't say for sure, but some sims should give you a good idea.
 
#40
paulspencer said:
The 12" sub driver market has just got a bit more competitive IMO. The HSU sub looks like a very capable driver, however for the money I think you can do better. One of the most appealing new contenders appears to be the Ascendant Audio Atlas 12. Most subs in its price range aren't in the same leage when you look at the XBL motor design. IIRC it costs only $140. While it doesn't have the excursion of the Adire Sadhara, it's much cheaper and runs on a typical mid powered plate amp, so it's a great value for money quality sub. TC sounds have also began selling to diyers apparently, and I have heard similar prices for the TC2+ which is similar to the AV12 from AE speakers but with a shorting ring, less excursion and slightly different parameters.
Click to expand...
hi paul, i got the atlas 12 today and installed it and, let me tell you, this thing sounds great! sounds great on music, and HT. some of the tightest, cleanest, and most musical sounding bass i've heard with excelent output and, transient response. quite hefty for a 12" at 21 pounds. scared my poor little rat terrier half to death he he. cheers, crippledchicken


😀
 
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