Hi all, first post on this forum so apologies if I'm in the wrong place. I'm looking for 0deg and 30deg FRD files for
along with the associated ZMA file. Does anyone know where to find these? I've looked everywhere but I don't have the tools (or drivers) to measure these for myself.
If these aren't available, is it possible or stupid to use VituixCAD with a roughly similar driver to at least get a rough idea of the initial crossover which could be modified once the speaker is built?
For context, I'm building a ~95dB 3 way PA with ~50L enclosure using this as the mid-bass, B&C 5MND38 8ohm as mid and Monacor DT300 8ohm as tweeter.
Any help would be massively appreciated!
along with the associated ZMA file. Does anyone know where to find these? I've looked everywhere but I don't have the tools (or drivers) to measure these for myself.
If these aren't available, is it possible or stupid to use VituixCAD with a roughly similar driver to at least get a rough idea of the initial crossover which could be modified once the speaker is built?
For context, I'm building a ~95dB 3 way PA with ~50L enclosure using this as the mid-bass, B&C 5MND38 8ohm as mid and Monacor DT300 8ohm as tweeter.
Any help would be massively appreciated!
look also the Open source monkey box thread, a frd and a zma measured in circa 68 to 77 L.
95 dB is not feasable with that woofer for two reasons : the way Faital measure is a bit optimistic, it is not a 97 dB unit more a 94 to 95 dB in the mid and more 91 dB around 100 hz. Then you have the Bafle step if you cut in the midrange. 90 db to 92 dB spl average seems more realistic and optimistic measurement of T Gravsen give it a little more 93 dB average...
Load needed : something between 68 l to 110L BR. I am looking too a 5" to 7" mid between 91 dB to 93 dB, so less spl because cut off near the F3 baffle step. Delicate subject as we have hard time to know the good enough bafle step loss in the final listening room according the furniture ands walls around.
Maybe a good approximation enough s the tool in Vitruix or jeff Bagby xcell difraction spead sheet... The Edge from tolvan just gives you an idea of the baffle "only".
95 dB is not feasable with that woofer for two reasons : the way Faital measure is a bit optimistic, it is not a 97 dB unit more a 94 to 95 dB in the mid and more 91 dB around 100 hz. Then you have the Bafle step if you cut in the midrange. 90 db to 92 dB spl average seems more realistic and optimistic measurement of T Gravsen give it a little more 93 dB average...
Load needed : something between 68 l to 110L BR. I am looking too a 5" to 7" mid between 91 dB to 93 dB, so less spl because cut off near the F3 baffle step. Delicate subject as we have hard time to know the good enough bafle step loss in the final listening room according the furniture ands walls around.
Maybe a good approximation enough s the tool in Vitruix or jeff Bagby xcell difraction spead sheet... The Edge from tolvan just gives you an idea of the baffle "only".
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Thanks for the fast reply. I have a few questions:
- I agree that the Faital isn't a 97dB driver but 95dB is the aim. However, isn't the drop off from ~100Hz partly accounted for by the fact these measurements are made in free air? I've made boxes which go lower than a similar drop-off e.g. Monacor SP-8/150PRO as shown on loudspeakerdatabase. How are we to account for this (I use WinISD for bass estimates), or have I made a misunderstood?
- Similar to first question - I used WinISD to check out both the Faital drivers and both can reach f3 57Hz in a 45L ported enclosure. This I would guess is more reliable than the manufacturer Vas but either way you're using externally provided data. What should I trust?
- I understand baffle step loss but haven't begun simulating in VituixCAD. As you say, it's a slightly tricky compromise with room effects which in the end must require some EQ. In terms of accounting for this, I'd rather boost bass using EQ than damp mid/high, partly for efficiency and partly because EQ will probably be needed no matter what (at least in my room) anyway. Is this a reasonable approach and have I guessed correctly at how people deal with BSL?
- I'm not aware of " jeff Bagby xcell difraction spead sheet" or "The Edge from tolvan ". Could you please point me in the right direction?
- You know Faital measure optimistically but how should I find this out in the future. Is there a more trustworthy source somewhere or have you found this through your own measurements and experience?
Many thanks
The drop is mainly due manufacterers measure on IEC baffle. So no baffle step till around 100 hz. At 100 hz in an enclosure it seems to be around 90 to 91 dB cause the 4 Pi transition.
The 12PR320 will not work low enough in 45 L BR without bass driver below.m to help it imho. Idem if sealed. After all that is a PA midwoofer not a true bass driver.
Try to read the Open Source Monkey Box thread... Very good collaborative work and plenty of measurements. The op did a pdf that resume the development as well. Google it.
You will find The Edge from Tolvan and Jeff Bagby the same way...hardcto do from my smartphone rigth now 😉.
Look for also Open Source Monkey Tower here
The 12PR320 will not work low enough in 45 L BR without bass driver below.m to help it imho. Idem if sealed. After all that is a PA midwoofer not a true bass driver.
Try to read the Open Source Monkey Box thread... Very good collaborative work and plenty of measurements. The op did a pdf that resume the development as well. Google it.
You will find The Edge from Tolvan and Jeff Bagby the same way...hardcto do from my smartphone rigth now 😉.
Look for also Open Source Monkey Tower here
Thanks that's super helpful, looks like I've got some serious reading to do.
For context, 90% of the time this will be used with multiple subs anyway so I'm mostly aiming for flat response down to ~ 80Hz without a sub. If that would be feasible with this driver then I'll play with BSL and some crossovers but otherwise I'm unsure what drivers would be compatible because many I've seen listed as >97dB seem to be for low Xmax guitar/bass cabinets. If I could pick a ~100dB 12inch that goes flat 80ish-500Hz in 45L enclosure I assume I could overcome the baffle step gods? I'll read the rest of the monkey box thread but just wanted to confirm if my current understanding is on the wrong track
Cheers again
So a sealed could be indeed the way to go if the group delay is better witj a low Qtc 0.5 to 0.6 max.
In the Osmc thread they choose a veey smooth BR low end that care about a good group delay too for a BR. But enough low end to use w/o sub. However some prefered an bigger load 107 L to gain a deeper low end and shelved low end as well...Delicate to choose as you know cause the unknown room gain according each user... I havent cutted the wood so chose the load yet but 90% a 107 L it will be so BR without sub. Volt mid of this thread is too much spendy for me and the price of passive parts almost increase x2 since this thread. So you will be very confortable with your EQ digital road. The BMS 6" is appealing I find but will need some highs taming notch as most mids. It should be close to what is needed for a passive cut off near 90 dB after some half bsc loss . But that is theory...I focus on 2 dB Bsc compensation max in my personal room.
In the Osmc thread they choose a veey smooth BR low end that care about a good group delay too for a BR. But enough low end to use w/o sub. However some prefered an bigger load 107 L to gain a deeper low end and shelved low end as well...Delicate to choose as you know cause the unknown room gain according each user... I havent cutted the wood so chose the load yet but 90% a 107 L it will be so BR without sub. Volt mid of this thread is too much spendy for me and the price of passive parts almost increase x2 since this thread. So you will be very confortable with your EQ digital road. The BMS 6" is appealing I find but will need some highs taming notch as most mids. It should be close to what is needed for a passive cut off near 90 dB after some half bsc loss . But that is theory...I focus on 2 dB Bsc compensation max in my personal room.
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a 100 db 80 hz to 500 hz 12" driver does not exist as far I know. If you boost a driver above its average spl with EQ then you create THD which you don't want most of the time but stadium needs where quality is not what one asks.
Again : manufacterers measure their drivers on the normalized IEC baffle, which is something near 2Pi. Your low end will be 4Pi so half of the front power of the driver is lost and delayed. the room gain is often too much low in the hz range above the two first octaves to compensate the baffle step loss in than area which is ruled by your baffle width (someting here between 36 cm to 50 cm i assume)
The Faital has enough spl for Bsc compensation whatever the technic, but of course electronic EQ low shelving is a way among overs (mid taming when using passive network).
If not your bass driver, you must consider than the subwoofer go at the same high spl level with the help of the room gain which is not linear itself according your listening position. Not easy but your 100 dB/2.83V seems a bit hard for subs below the 12PR320/80 hz, or ask solid powerplates and drivers (18"?).
It is important for good sound to have a power response that dive slowly : so the low end dictate the early upper spl beginning (in the lows).
If you have the Faital and uses bass boost, knowing the Xmax is around 5 mm more than 7.5 mm datasheet (Dickason gave me a doubt, most is above my poor understanding), it will limitting the maximum dynamic peak your loudspeaker is able to Mostly depends if you average listening level is quiet or loud.
Three designs known that travel between 90 dB/2.83V and 93.5 dB : Osmc here at Diya, Tony Gee (Humble HomemadeHifi), Troels Gravsen. Going higher average may limit the dynamic behavior (the difference between the average listening level and higher transcients peaks) according the reccordings and your average listening level is a bit high.
It diserves maybe a little brainstorming with knowledgeable designers in the "multi ways" section (maybe mods could move the thread if needed by you to expand the readers numbers with better knowledge than my limited ones).
At home if ou stand with that driver between 90 dB (OSMC) to 93.5 dB (T. Gravsen) (where is the truth ? and does that matter here ?) , it is more than enough as average 1W imo in home listening situation. YMMV of course, just my basic point of view.
Again : manufacterers measure their drivers on the normalized IEC baffle, which is something near 2Pi. Your low end will be 4Pi so half of the front power of the driver is lost and delayed. the room gain is often too much low in the hz range above the two first octaves to compensate the baffle step loss in than area which is ruled by your baffle width (someting here between 36 cm to 50 cm i assume)
The Faital has enough spl for Bsc compensation whatever the technic, but of course electronic EQ low shelving is a way among overs (mid taming when using passive network).
If not your bass driver, you must consider than the subwoofer go at the same high spl level with the help of the room gain which is not linear itself according your listening position. Not easy but your 100 dB/2.83V seems a bit hard for subs below the 12PR320/80 hz, or ask solid powerplates and drivers (18"?).
It is important for good sound to have a power response that dive slowly : so the low end dictate the early upper spl beginning (in the lows).
If you have the Faital and uses bass boost, knowing the Xmax is around 5 mm more than 7.5 mm datasheet (Dickason gave me a doubt, most is above my poor understanding), it will limitting the maximum dynamic peak your loudspeaker is able to Mostly depends if you average listening level is quiet or loud.
Three designs known that travel between 90 dB/2.83V and 93.5 dB : Osmc here at Diya, Tony Gee (Humble HomemadeHifi), Troels Gravsen. Going higher average may limit the dynamic behavior (the difference between the average listening level and higher transcients peaks) according the reccordings and your average listening level is a bit high.
It diserves maybe a little brainstorming with knowledgeable designers in the "multi ways" section (maybe mods could move the thread if needed by you to expand the readers numbers with better knowledge than my limited ones).
At home if ou stand with that driver between 90 dB (OSMC) to 93.5 dB (T. Gravsen) (where is the truth ? and does that matter here ?) , it is more than enough as average 1W imo in home listening situation. YMMV of course, just my basic point of view.
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