I'm in the market for new speakers.
As I am more of a craftsman than designer, I'm looking for a proven design that I can build. I currently use a combo of a Bottlehead 2a3 SET and Crown XPS1500 for amplification and, though I can always build another amp, I like the dynamics of efficient speakers so am leaning in that direction. I built a Planet 10 design a few years ago using Mark Audio 7.3 and 12pw drivers and they do most things very well, but in some circumstances they can sound a little thin. I suspect that is a result of reproducing 300hz through 15khz with a 3" driver, and everything below with a 6".
Might be time to go bigger? Perhaps there is some magic in letting a bigger driver reproduce all of the midrange? I have a set of Bozak Symphonies in our cabin and, while they are not the last word in accuracy or detail, their midrange and bass are incredible. Can I have the dynamics of the Mark Audios and the lushness of the Bozaks in one speaker?
My room is 23' x 10', and I listen across the narrow axis. I understand Hoffmann's Iron Law, but my room isn't very big so I can't go with truly massive cabinets. Lots of reading has led me to considering Wayne Parham's 4pi speakers and adding a pair of subs (probably as stands, recognizing that is not his recommended flanking-sub arrangement). Has anyone here heard them? Tough to find much on them outside of AudioRoundTable.
I've also been reading about Elsinores, OSMC (would need a new amp for them), or some form of the Econowaves. Any thoughts on these, or other options I should consider, would be most appreciated.
Thanks!
As I am more of a craftsman than designer, I'm looking for a proven design that I can build. I currently use a combo of a Bottlehead 2a3 SET and Crown XPS1500 for amplification and, though I can always build another amp, I like the dynamics of efficient speakers so am leaning in that direction. I built a Planet 10 design a few years ago using Mark Audio 7.3 and 12pw drivers and they do most things very well, but in some circumstances they can sound a little thin. I suspect that is a result of reproducing 300hz through 15khz with a 3" driver, and everything below with a 6".
Might be time to go bigger? Perhaps there is some magic in letting a bigger driver reproduce all of the midrange? I have a set of Bozak Symphonies in our cabin and, while they are not the last word in accuracy or detail, their midrange and bass are incredible. Can I have the dynamics of the Mark Audios and the lushness of the Bozaks in one speaker?
My room is 23' x 10', and I listen across the narrow axis. I understand Hoffmann's Iron Law, but my room isn't very big so I can't go with truly massive cabinets. Lots of reading has led me to considering Wayne Parham's 4pi speakers and adding a pair of subs (probably as stands, recognizing that is not his recommended flanking-sub arrangement). Has anyone here heard them? Tough to find much on them outside of AudioRoundTable.
I've also been reading about Elsinores, OSMC (would need a new amp for them), or some form of the Econowaves. Any thoughts on these, or other options I should consider, would be most appreciated.
Thanks!
You built the single woofer version? Almost sounds like the balance is off, and you need to bump up the woofers output a couple db in relation to the A7.3.
jeff
Hi, Jeff
Yep. Single woofer version, build documented here:
Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
They really do sound good, but I feel like they could use a little weight, move more air, in the midrange. There is good bass extension, though that too could probably benefit from moving more air. While they measure well, the difference in tonal quality between them and the Bozaks, with 2x12", 1x8" and 8x2" per side, is not subtle. I could build the MTM version with another pair of 12pw, but that doesn't sound likely to change the upper midrange much.
Since I'm bi-amplifying and using PLLXO, I can play with levels very freely. I've got the 12pw turned up as loudly as I can without throwing the system totally out of balance. Another option might be to move the crossover point way up, letting the 12pw cover more of the upper midrange (currently crossed over at around 300hz, first order). At that point, however, I'm asking it to cover both the bass and midrange, losing most of the point of the WAW configuration.
Yep. Single woofer version, build documented here:
Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
They really do sound good, but I feel like they could use a little weight, move more air, in the midrange. There is good bass extension, though that too could probably benefit from moving more air. While they measure well, the difference in tonal quality between them and the Bozaks, with 2x12", 1x8" and 8x2" per side, is not subtle. I could build the MTM version with another pair of 12pw, but that doesn't sound likely to change the upper midrange much.
Since I'm bi-amplifying and using PLLXO, I can play with levels very freely. I've got the 12pw turned up as loudly as I can without throwing the system totally out of balance. Another option might be to move the crossover point way up, letting the 12pw cover more of the upper midrange (currently crossed over at around 300hz, first order). At that point, however, I'm asking it to cover both the bass and midrange, losing most of the point of the WAW configuration.
I saw the pic! Very strange combination in a huge cabinet...
Nowadays the two 12" would be long-throw woofers ( or subs), crossing at about 150 Hz to the mid-wf...OOhh, I saw also pictures of newer Bozaks with MTM and double woofers.
I'd say to dismantle the tweeter brigade and put one tweeter only! Nowadays there are tweeters that has sufficient sensitivity, not in the CD ( comp.driver) range but still 95 dB/W/m is good. Probably a waveguide to meet mid-wf dispersion at crossover freq. is needed. Also a different distribution of the drivers on the baffle, vertical on axys, yes, but they wouldn't be ol' Bozaks anymore 😱😀
I've heard the big MTM version up at Dave's a few times, and they always sounded balanced.
I would experiment with the crossover point, since this would be easy.
jeff
Eventually, when I retire, I'll likely move whatever I have here up there, and use the Bozaks in my (yet to be built) shop. For now I want to build something for my house in MD that has characteristics of both the WAW and Symphonies, but doesn't destroy the Bozaks. They live in upstate NY, and I want to leave them as they are for now.
If you want to see something even more bonkers, Google the Bozak Concert Grands.
I am more size restricted than money restricted.
If more costly drivers will allow me to build something truly superlative in the general size range of the OSMC/4pi I will be happy to do so. That said, both speakers use high-quality drivers and were carefully designed by people far more knowledgeable than I. I am not going to try and design a speaker, no matter how good the drivers are, as my inexperience will almost certainly result in garbage.
There is definitely a bit of WAF at play here. Trying to dance around that as best I can. 🙂😱 I can't go much over the current height of 3 feet, but I can go a bit wider. The 4pi are quite wide, but being on stands will help them not feel like monoliths. OSMC will fit even better, but the reduction in sensitivity will make a new amp more necessary and I suspect they'll lose some of the high-efficiency dynamics I like (pure speculation, based on the complexity of the crossovers). I could maybe go a bit taller, but then I'd have to go thinner like the Elsinores (again with a new amp).
I'll admit that I'm biased toward larger drivers right now. I can be talked out of it, but bigger seems like it might be better for low through mid range.
I don't know that my current speakers are unbalanced. The issue, I think, is in the tonal characteristics. Not sure how else to say it. A 15" driver will sound different from a 3" driver when playing the same stuff. I'm interested in exploring those differences, recognizing that I'll undoubtedly give up something for whatever I gain. This might explain why I gravitated towards the 4pi. They are similar in that one driver is reproducing most of the range, which I think might help me retain the dynamics I like. On the other hand, they flip the whole concept upside down by using a HUGE driver to do it, which I have to think will change the tone. Could be fun, but I'm not married to the concept. Just exploring.
Appreciate your continued input!
Well, you lost me at a height of 3 feet....
That said, these are huge in their scale of presentation (even at lower volumes) but.... heck, the top horn alone is probably pushing 20 inches tall.
Attachments
Oh dang, Coytee! I bet those are glorious!!
Maybe I'll build something like those for my shop. Sell/give the Bozaks away!
Maybe I'll build something like those for my shop. Sell/give the Bozaks away!
I've done a lot of reading and thinking and have come to the conclusion that I dont need to completely change course.
The Alpair-based speakers I built from Planet 10 do SO MUCH right that I think I'll try the MTM version with two 12pw per side. That should provide the low mid grunt i want, while preserving the low volume coherence i enjoy now.
Question now is if I can source a pair of 12pw....
The Alpair-based speakers I built from Planet 10 do SO MUCH right that I think I'll try the MTM version with two 12pw per side. That should provide the low mid grunt i want, while preserving the low volume coherence i enjoy now.
Question now is if I can source a pair of 12pw....
Replying to myself again...
First, I shouldn't post after/while drinking like I did last night. I'm not done considering options.
Second, is there a reason I shouldn't consider Altec 604s? Since I sit only about 8 feet away from my speakers, they might be perfect.
First, I shouldn't post after/while drinking like I did last night. I'm not done considering options.
Second, is there a reason I shouldn't consider Altec 604s? Since I sit only about 8 feet away from my speakers, they might be perfect.
Actually, Altec's generally are "mid-range" emphasized - so given your subjective priority it would be a very good idea to consider them.
Alternatively, consider your full-range driver open-baffle or open-back (with some mild damping), and a midbass driver in a large sealed enclosure that will provide that midrange emphasis. A ".5-way" speaker with perhaps just an inductor for the midbass driver's low-pass filter (with plenty of pressure "over-lap" between the two drivers), likely targeting a -3db near 550 Hz and utilizing some "floor-gain" with the woofer closer to the floor.
The FAITAL 15PR400 might be a good choice for this..
Alternatively, consider your full-range driver open-baffle or open-back (with some mild damping), and a midbass driver in a large sealed enclosure that will provide that midrange emphasis. A ".5-way" speaker with perhaps just an inductor for the midbass driver's low-pass filter (with plenty of pressure "over-lap" between the two drivers), likely targeting a -3db near 550 Hz and utilizing some "floor-gain" with the woofer closer to the floor.
The FAITAL 15PR400 might be a good choice for this..
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