Be sure to compare specs of both cards at the same sample rates - in this case I would compare at both 48k/16 bit and 96k/24 bit. I use an M-audio Audiophile 2496 pci and find it more than adequate for use with arta and high quality spdif output to my zhaolu and PSA Ultralink II dacs. You can gang up to four of these cards in one machine. (PCI only)
The 24192 is marginally better in some respects but has balanced i/o which is an enhancement I was not willing to pay for. (Its much more expensive than the 2496.)
Incidentally iirc all external peripherals are ultimately connected to the computers internal PCI (or possibly other internal high speed parallel bus depending on architecture and chip set) bus via their respective bus transceivers and imo while firewire is great, (I use it and find it considerably better than usb2) the native pci interface should be a little faster as there are several fewer layers of hardware and drivers involved. Note others may disagree, so don't take my word for it, do some additional research before you buy anything..
All that said the audiophile 2496 is a great card, and very reliable. Drivers are ok too, although not updated very frequently. (Perhaps that is a blessing??)
The 24192 is marginally better in some respects but has balanced i/o which is an enhancement I was not willing to pay for. (Its much more expensive than the 2496.)
Incidentally iirc all external peripherals are ultimately connected to the computers internal PCI (or possibly other internal high speed parallel bus depending on architecture and chip set) bus via their respective bus transceivers and imo while firewire is great, (I use it and find it considerably better than usb2) the native pci interface should be a little faster as there are several fewer layers of hardware and drivers involved. Note others may disagree, so don't take my word for it, do some additional research before you buy anything..
All that said the audiophile 2496 is a great card, and very reliable. Drivers are ok too, although not updated very frequently. (Perhaps that is a blessing??)
ok,k thanks all you guys, i just want to purchase an good card, that help me to play music with nice quality, and measure speakers, thats all.
I will go for 2 cards, one to measure and another to use as PRE for the 5 speakers that i build.
i really dont want to purchase an card that are crap, thats all
2 weeks ago i purchased an X-fi but i sold it to an friend Yesterday, now i want to go for an better quality card. I dont make music, i dont mix, i just want low noise and fast/good card.
for 2 channels, i will go with
FireWire Audiophile (130USD)
or
Audiophile 192 Soundcard (130USD too)
I will go for 2 cards, one to measure and another to use as PRE for the 5 speakers that i build.
i really dont want to purchase an card that are crap, thats all
2 weeks ago i purchased an X-fi but i sold it to an friend Yesterday, now i want to go for an better quality card. I dont make music, i dont mix, i just want low noise and fast/good card.
for 2 channels, i will go with
FireWire Audiophile (130USD)
or
Audiophile 192 Soundcard (130USD too)
Keep in mind that if you don’t need higher sample rates or have use for it, you gain nothing with it. Actually for measuring the higher the sample rate the higher noise, spurs and distortion you get. And no card is really 24 bits, all cards have a noise limitation that sticks to 20 to 22bits usable resolution at best. Except very expensive studio gear.
But you can set of course a card to lower sample rates In fact, for measuring speakers a card capable of say a native fs of 8 kHz is advantageous if you want to do high resolution measurements at woofers. This comes into play if you want to measure impedance and estimating T/S parameters.
But you can set of course a card to lower sample rates
In fact, for measuring speakers a card capable of say a native fs of 8 kHz is advantageous if you want to do high resolution measurements at woofers. This comes into play if you want to measure impedance and estimating T/S parameters.
pc dacs - What's best...
I have spent thousands of bucks (sad) on DACs and sound cards for my PC. All that you all have mentioned...
What I found is the following:
The ONKYO DAC 24/192 (only available in Japan - no kidding - no english for any install or manual! - can't buy it in Europe or the US - gotta goto audiocubes.com).
For 200 bucks you get the best DAC known to man. Check it out. It does 42/48/64/128/192 at 24 bits - user selectable. 7.1, RCA out, TOSLINK out - many inputs. FABULOUS!
The little sister - the ONKYO SE150-PCI is also fabulous. I have both and can compare them to......nothing.
The sound is fabulous - I have built this unit in both it's forms into my integrated amplified (UCD, what else?) jukeboxes and I have never been happier.
Check out http://www.audiocubes.com/product/Onkyo_SE-200PCI_HD_PCI_Digital_Audio_Board.html
No doubt, specs back up the listening (or the other way around!). I have three of these and nothing is better....
Look at the specs and let me know what you think - I am curious as to what y'all think...
Funny Nobody has ever mentioned this device here - or anywhere else.
Best kept secret...
Regards,
Tom
I have spent thousands of bucks (sad) on DACs and sound cards for my PC. All that you all have mentioned...
What I found is the following:
The ONKYO DAC 24/192 (only available in Japan - no kidding - no english for any install or manual! - can't buy it in Europe or the US - gotta goto audiocubes.com).
For 200 bucks you get the best DAC known to man. Check it out. It does 42/48/64/128/192 at 24 bits - user selectable. 7.1, RCA out, TOSLINK out - many inputs. FABULOUS!
The little sister - the ONKYO SE150-PCI is also fabulous. I have both and can compare them to......nothing.
The sound is fabulous - I have built this unit in both it's forms into my integrated amplified (UCD, what else?) jukeboxes and I have never been happier.
Check out http://www.audiocubes.com/product/Onkyo_SE-200PCI_HD_PCI_Digital_Audio_Board.html
No doubt, specs back up the listening (or the other way around!). I have three of these and nothing is better....
Look at the specs and let me know what you think - I am curious as to what y'all think...
Funny Nobody has ever mentioned this device here - or anywhere else.
Best kept secret...
Regards,
Tom
samsagaz said:for 2 channels will do the same.
What abt for 5.1 or 7.1 channels? i think that im an stupid i would use my X-Fi, dont know why i sell it
Take a look here
Maudio also has a 7.1 and a 5.1 card.
Myself owns a maudio 2496 and i am happy with it. The spdif-in/out is a very nice feature, DTS and AC3 out is confirmed.
See attachment for distortionlevels at ~-6db... (measured cable loop out-in, on Win2K SP4)
Mike
Attachments
Hi Mike,
At –10dB you get even a lower figure (see attachment). It appears to me that above –6dB distortion rises a lot. Don’t know if this is due to the DA/AD codec or it is in the amplifiers. Anyway, something to take into account when doing distortion measurements at amplifiers.
Cheers
At –10dB you get even a lower figure (see attachment). It appears to me that above –6dB distortion rises a lot. Don’t know if this is due to the DA/AD codec or it is in the amplifiers. Anyway, something to take into account when doing distortion measurements at amplifiers.
Cheers
Attachments
Pjotr said:Hi Mike,
At –10dB you get even a lower figure (see attachment). It appears to me that above –6dB distortion rises a lot. Don’t know if this is due to the DA/AD codec or it is in the amplifiers. Anyway, something to take into account when doing distortion measurements at amplifiers.
Cheers
Yes, you get much much better results when not driving soundcards input/output at full scale... I also don't know where this comes from.
Yes, simply don't use full scale when doing measurings!
Mike
Hi FastEddy,
PCI-SE200:
VIA Envy24HT and Wolfson WM8740 DAC
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-12831-PCI-SE200,+the+new+Onkyo+HD+sound+card.html
Looks tasty...
PCI-SE200:
VIA Envy24HT and Wolfson WM8740 DAC
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-12831-PCI-SE200,+the+new+Onkyo+HD+sound+card.html
Looks tasty...
I checked out the WM8740 DAC ... pretty good indeed, for stereo 24 bit / 192K output. better than 115 db signal to noise & better than 100 db distortion. ( http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8740/ ) The Eval boards are a little pricy @ US$200 each, but that's what happens when you discover quality = sometimes it is rather expensive for DIY.
I wonder if anyone has a FireWire interface chip for this ... possibly Oxford Semi. I would like to have a "pure" FireWire to audio output interface without all the extras like MIDI, etc.
(I may get one just to see if I can make an HDMI to HDMI cable audio tap, a breakout box ... probably have to find an HDMI pass through chip with I2S output too.)
I wonder if anyone has a FireWire interface chip for this ... possibly Oxford Semi. I would like to have a "pure" FireWire to audio output interface without all the extras like MIDI, etc.
(I may get one just to see if I can make an HDMI to HDMI cable audio tap, a breakout box ... probably have to find an HDMI pass through chip with I2S output too.)
FastEddy said:
The figures are stated for 48 kHz sample rate. That is not better than the FFT plots posted earlier. But anyway the SE150-PCI looks like a very nice card for multi channel. Curious about how well the accompanying drivers perform.
B.t.w. Can somebody point me to the necessity of a playback sample rate of 192 kHz for a soundcard? I have seen no music software at that rate.
" ... But anyway the SE150-PCI looks like a very nice card for multi channel. ..."
I don't like PCI cards. All that PC switching power supply noise leaks out into the better quality audio equipment. And a fully loaded PC with plug in sound card is always sucking up the maximum power available =more noise yet. So no matter what the spec sheets may say about signal to noise or CMRR or THD, without very special tweaks, plug in PCI cards are dreadful for listening enjoyment.
If you are interested in quality, then get an external audio device with external power and decent isolation and filtering, otherwise the bucks spent of a fancy plug in sound card are wasted.
I don't like PCI cards. All that PC switching power supply noise leaks out into the better quality audio equipment. And a fully loaded PC with plug in sound card is always sucking up the maximum power available =more noise yet. So no matter what the spec sheets may say about signal to noise or CMRR or THD, without very special tweaks, plug in PCI cards are dreadful for listening enjoyment.
If you are interested in quality, then get an external audio device with external power and decent isolation and filtering, otherwise the bucks spent of a fancy plug in sound card are wasted.
Hi Fast Eddy,
Have a look at the plots above from a PCI card. Are these that bad?
Actually I have tested several outboard (USB and Firewire) cards and these perform no better than good PCI cards concerning distortion, noise and spurs. In some cases even slightly worse like the M-Audio Duo mic-input USB card which is by itself an excellent card.
Have a look at the plots above from a PCI card. Are these that bad?
Actually I have tested several outboard (USB and Firewire) cards and these perform no better than good PCI cards concerning distortion, noise and spurs. In some cases even slightly worse like the M-Audio Duo mic-input USB card which is by itself an excellent card.
" Have a look at the plots above from a PCI card. Are these that bad? ..."
Yes, in that they do not reflect the reality of installation into any generic PCs ... or even representative of a stripped down PC with a heavy duty power supply.
Yes, these are about as good as it gets for a plug in PCI sound card ... but that's my point. ALL PCs' power supplies are dirty, noisey mashups intended for the powering of digital chips, only.
You or anyone else can see this. Example: Put an oscilloscopy on the RCA output port of any PCI sound card (any PC, any card, good or bad, high quality or not, left or right or whatever as long as it is an analog output port). Play back nothing, just observe the silent port. Note the noise levels, a mashup of noise usually around 2 to 50 millivolts of chatter, noise, square waves ... Garbage !!! and it is only about 50 to 60 db down, at best, from a line level audio signal from the same port.
The point is, ALL plug in sound card makers use special PCs to get their test results. You home PC or even your specially tweaked media server can not match the equipment these PCI card makers are using ... without spending hundreds and hunderds of extra dollars on very custom power supplies and a whole lot of isolating technics in side of the PC box ... this may be a good idea for a few DIY types, but generally the bucks wasted on PCI sound cards could be better spent by simply getting the DAC outside of the box ... and either connecting it via USB or FireWire or SPDIF optical ... ...
Get a Mac and get one of these if you want good isolation from your dirty PC : http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-main.html
Yes, in that they do not reflect the reality of installation into any generic PCs ... or even representative of a stripped down PC with a heavy duty power supply.
Yes, these are about as good as it gets for a plug in PCI sound card ... but that's my point. ALL PCs' power supplies are dirty, noisey mashups intended for the powering of digital chips, only.
You or anyone else can see this. Example: Put an oscilloscopy on the RCA output port of any PCI sound card (any PC, any card, good or bad, high quality or not, left or right or whatever as long as it is an analog output port). Play back nothing, just observe the silent port. Note the noise levels, a mashup of noise usually around 2 to 50 millivolts of chatter, noise, square waves ... Garbage !!! and it is only about 50 to 60 db down, at best, from a line level audio signal from the same port.
The point is, ALL plug in sound card makers use special PCs to get their test results. You home PC or even your specially tweaked media server can not match the equipment these PCI card makers are using ... without spending hundreds and hunderds of extra dollars on very custom power supplies and a whole lot of isolating technics in side of the PC box ... this may be a good idea for a few DIY types, but generally the bucks wasted on PCI sound cards could be better spent by simply getting the DAC outside of the box ... and either connecting it via USB or FireWire or SPDIF optical ... ...
Get a Mac and get one of these if you want good isolation from your dirty PC : http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Transit-main.html
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