After 10 years of using the same DIY speakers, it's time for a change. A real change, not just few drivers, but the whole thing. The whole experience.
So basically, i'm not really seeking for a 120db in-room thing (even though i might crank it up from time to time) but my goal is to get the most immersive experience possible. The loudness will pretty much be a byproduct of the immersive sound...
So, here the basics of the recipe (so far):
3x 18FH500 per side
1x 950PB per side
12x ribbons or AMT per side
Got nine ft. ceiling, so i'd like to exploit them as much as possible, so let's say 2,50-2,70 meters high speakers. But minimal footprint, so slim and maybe 45-50cm deep.
The Faital's will be side-loaded in 45deg or so. Front baffle for mid/tweeters will be as narrow as possible (as the 18FH500 angle permits). Divided in 3 blocks, for a total of 6 pieces for the whole pair of speakers.
Now, i question myself before starting to build the monsters, starting with that:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/300628-official-hornless-compression-driver-thread.html
(18FH500 in angle will only get me so far in the mid range)
and also: is anybody on this forum ever tried a ''sandwich'' line array, where the mid is point source but not the rest ?
So basically, i'm not really seeking for a 120db in-room thing (even though i might crank it up from time to time) but my goal is to get the most immersive experience possible. The loudness will pretty much be a byproduct of the immersive sound...
So, here the basics of the recipe (so far):
3x 18FH500 per side
1x 950PB per side
12x ribbons or AMT per side
Got nine ft. ceiling, so i'd like to exploit them as much as possible, so let's say 2,50-2,70 meters high speakers. But minimal footprint, so slim and maybe 45-50cm deep.
The Faital's will be side-loaded in 45deg or so. Front baffle for mid/tweeters will be as narrow as possible (as the 18FH500 angle permits). Divided in 3 blocks, for a total of 6 pieces for the whole pair of speakers.
Now, i question myself before starting to build the monsters, starting with that:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/300628-official-hornless-compression-driver-thread.html
(18FH500 in angle will only get me so far in the mid range)
and also: is anybody on this forum ever tried a ''sandwich'' line array, where the mid is point source but not the rest ?
Hi Jon,
Well that's certainly ambitious! They aren't often listed, but Mundorf has a "pro" line of AMT's that are much longer than usual. They may fit your needs, at eye-watering prices. Several models are horn/waveguide loaded.
http://www.mundorf.com/pdf/Mundorf_proAMT_Catalog.pdf
Best,
Erik
Well that's certainly ambitious! They aren't often listed, but Mundorf has a "pro" line of AMT's that are much longer than usual. They may fit your needs, at eye-watering prices. Several models are horn/waveguide loaded.
http://www.mundorf.com/pdf/Mundorf_proAMT_Catalog.pdf
Best,
Erik
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But it will fall of 6 dB for each doubling of distance, and the top end probably wont. It would be closer to 3 dB for each doubling. Which also means the power response will be a mixed bag too as not all walls or other areas will be at design distances.
The low end probably won't function as a true array.
You're kinda making be think of this:
Along the lines of: if one is good, 7 is better 🙂.
Not that I am innocent in that department though 😛.
The low end probably won't function as a true array.
You're kinda making be think of this:
Along the lines of: if one is good, 7 is better 🙂.
Not that I am innocent in that department though 😛.
Attachments
Will measure them tonight with my RTA, SPL calibrated mic and wattmeter
again... a the risk of blowing Be diaphragms 😱
educated-guess here: i'll be able to reach 115-120db, at listening position, only with the pair of hornless 950PBbe and a 125ASX2. All flat, EQd, 500hz-3.5khz
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Is it possible than a 18" match a 2" CD at 500 Hz : speed and beaming (beginn at 300Hz for a 18"?) ? Or is it still Something 2Pi or 4Pi patern below 500 Hz ?
Also too big (Sd) for a good human voice rendition below the compression driver ?
Also too big (Sd) for a good human voice rendition below the compression driver ?
Measured on RTA the 18FH500, very off-axis, i have an excellent response up to 600hz (without any EQ correction)
But, agreed, it's on the limits.
But, agreed, it's on the limits.
you must not like the benefit of a good horn - 120 db is no problem from a pair of compression drivers in a good size horn. just a few watts. low level listening is really the best part though. immersive sound - horns setup correctly are as good as it gets
what horns have you used with the radian drivers
the wrong horn can sound like garbage
what horns have you used with the radian drivers
the wrong horn can sound like garbage
@POOH, i probably can say exactly the same about a hornless set-up.
But the difference is i not only have something more compact, but a sonic presentation much more open and natural.
But the difference is i not only have something more compact, but a sonic presentation much more open and natural.
in my own system? None.
In other systems, all kinds, with different CDs.
Diffraction is the key word, here. I just don't adhere to the whole horn concept in a domestic environement, with the kind sonic presentation i'm looking for (3D-feel soundstage, openness, etc...)
Horns are made for acoustic impedance. Very useful, unavoidable, in PA (especially outdoors) but in a domestic environment i don't see the point. Maybe in a very very large room, but otherwise? No.
In other systems, all kinds, with different CDs.
Diffraction is the key word, here. I just don't adhere to the whole horn concept in a domestic environement, with the kind sonic presentation i'm looking for (3D-feel soundstage, openness, etc...)
Horns are made for acoustic impedance. Very useful, unavoidable, in PA (especially outdoors) but in a domestic environment i don't see the point. Maybe in a very very large room, but otherwise? No.
Many modern horns are made specifically for open natural sound. They are better at being "open" than a direct radiator having the advantage of controlled radiation in the openness. I good compression driver in the right horn can also have very wide bandwith with open radiation throughout that bandwith. More ope, better in room power response, bigger sweet spot, plus ultra high output with a few watts.
I think it would be worth while to try your drivers the way they were intended before jumping into this eq no horn hocus pocus.
I think it would be worth while to try your drivers the way they were intended before jumping into this eq no horn hocus pocus.
The effect you want, say across the width of a large sofa is largely obtained by achieving uniform controlled directivity. If done well is even possible to get amazing playback for listeners seated well outside the width of the speakers. Traditional compression driver designs use breakup to produce the top end of the operating spectrum, be it through the surround, diaphragm, or both, this may be the source of your general objection to horn sound. Garbage in = garbage out, horn loaded or not.
IMO there are modern waveguide/horns and some compression drivers that together are very neutral.
IMO there are modern waveguide/horns and some compression drivers that together are very neutral.
That's really going to be the rub.
I have heard several of systems like this with big holes in the mid bass. Moreover I have yet to hear an 18 that you didn't have to get out of by 250Hz or less, often less.
Barry.
Of course you can match the 18 at 500 Hz. Just use a good large format driver and a horn that matches it. The 18" JBL 2242 will embarrass most drivers up to 500 Hz. It's an exceptional driver. Better yet, use a horn for the midbass.
https://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2242.pdf
Yeah, like a Leviathan with two 2220's. 😀
I have 2242's and I never use them over 250Hz, that is such a compromise when so many drivers sound better up there. A 2020H is a stretch to play with authority with a 2242.
I have 2360's for example and there is no way I could be happy without something in between.
Barry.
I agree with you, Barry.
But then, i heard a 18FH500. I might be wrong, but i feel that one can sing a little 😉
Havent tested in stereo, etc..., but it seems like a champ.
I'm living for almost ten years with a 4-way, and there was reasons why i build a 4-way at that time...
If i'm gonna downgrade to a 3-way, i must expect some compromises. And frankly, if i can get the sort of performance in 200-500hz region that my Volt BM2500.4 is delivering, but from the 18FH500, i'll be happy. I know i probably won't be able to push it up to 800-1000hz, but 500hz (or even 400hz if the CD can handle it!) seems reasonnable.
If i'm gonna downgrade to a 3-way, i must expect some compromises. And frankly, if i can get the sort of performance in 200-500hz region that my Volt BM2500.4 is delivering, but from the 18FH500, i'll be happy. I know i probably won't be able to push it up to 800-1000hz, but 500hz (or even 400hz if the CD can handle it!) seems reasonnable.
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