They've used something like this at Royal Albert Hall for some operas - it is performed in the centre of the auditorium (something like a 300 degree audience), the cast have some kind of tracking and the PA on a truss that follows the edge of the auditorium below uses delay techniques to make sound like it is coming from the singer - must be different delays for different sections of the audience.
Theatre
I saw the thing at Barbican Theatre too - didn't know they used it but I do remember how easy it was to follow where the actor's voices were coming from in the frantic action..
Aaaah the Barbican, I spent many a pleasant afternoon there listening to live music. Been a long time. Good memories.
It's amazing how complex "live sound" has become. I don't think you can go to a play now that isn't miked. And as you say, Opera too. Of course all popular music is heavily mic and speaker driven with tons of processing. There isn't a lot of pure acoustic music left. Thanks for the link.
It's amazing how complex "live sound" has become. I don't think you can go to a play now that isn't miked. And as you say, Opera too. Of course all popular music is heavily mic and speaker driven with tons of processing. There isn't a lot of pure acoustic music left. Thanks for the link.
Classical chamber music is now almost always one mic per performer.
Gripe 1: So you get violin hard left, cello hard right, whatever else sort of floating in the middle.
Gripe 2: Pianos are stereo mic'ed with the mics virtually in the piano. So you get bass notes left, treble right. This may be how the performer hears it, but not what the audience hears.
Gripe 3: Close mic'ing. Does a bassoon's mechanism have to sound like a Caterpillar tractor? Do we really need to hear a guitarist's fingers sliding on the strings?
Gripe 4: Recording a string quartet in a 3000 seat auditorium. OK, we can electronically put some reverb into the recording, but has the engineer ever heard that quartet in a 25' square room loaded with people and furniture?
OK. I'll go away now.
Bob
Gripe 1: So you get violin hard left, cello hard right, whatever else sort of floating in the middle.
Gripe 2: Pianos are stereo mic'ed with the mics virtually in the piano. So you get bass notes left, treble right. This may be how the performer hears it, but not what the audience hears.
Gripe 3: Close mic'ing. Does a bassoon's mechanism have to sound like a Caterpillar tractor? Do we really need to hear a guitarist's fingers sliding on the strings?
Gripe 4: Recording a string quartet in a 3000 seat auditorium. OK, we can electronically put some reverb into the recording, but has the engineer ever heard that quartet in a 25' square room loaded with people and furniture?
OK. I'll go away now.
Bob
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no don't go away... that's indeed a large part of the issue how it was recorded to begin with...
i've never understood the rationalization that something "recorded" can be made to sound "live" again...a convincing, compelling illusion but indistinguishable from real i do not think is possible.
i've never understood the rationalization that something "recorded" can be made to sound "live" again...a convincing, compelling illusion but indistinguishable from real i do not think is possible.
Have you ever recorded a string quartet, any thing else. It's a series of compromises. close mics reduce audience noise and the rooms effect and allows for adjusting the instrument Ballance but it changes the tone of the instrument. When I worked at the Banff centre I recorded small groups of classical instruments every week in live concerts. They played in a gym that was sort of acoustically prepared but wasn't great. We almost always used a stereo pair about ten feet from the players and some spot mics, one always on the piano because the piano in the stereo pair always sounded like it was way too roomy. And these were 12 foot grands with the lid open. The musicians complained once about the ugly mics being so obvious to the crowd so for the next concert my partner put a Nueman dummy head on a mic stand in the front row. When the musicians heard the recording they hated it. More gym reverb and audience chairs and paper noise than instruments. That what it really sounds like in the audience, and this was the front row. The brain is great sat filtering this out.
Can you fool people? Of course you can. That dosnt mean it's the same. Next time you listen to a live trumpet walk around the room. If the trumpet stays still the sound at your ears will be different every few feet because they are so directional. So in a test like your doing it depends where the person is sitting. Right in front of the horn will be different than of to the side while a good speaker will sound the same in both seats.
Yes. The brain is a beautiful machine. Concentration focusses the ears to the front and centre, so less reverb. You also filter out the audience noise, to a point. And the string squeaks, sax key noise, piano pedal noise and the piano player humming along.
But I don't think that's the point, Chris. If you record a horn player with the mic directly in front of him, then play it back, it should sound like a horn player with his horn pointed at you. If he turns, it should sound like you have not moved, but he has. And it should sound like that across a reasonable area. Like the eyes of a painting that follow you.
I don't think anyone is trying to recreate the actual sound field of a horn or a cello. It's just an illusion with a limited window. There really isn't a practical system, that I know of, for recreation of that full sound field. We do the best we can with the systems we have. Can that system sound like the real thing given the limitations of movement? For me, that's the question.
Yes, that and the room in which it's played back can make a major difference. And my experience is - the better the room and the speakers, the less I mind the recorded room tone. But mics still usually sound too "live" to me.
@cddb
We are apples/oranges here. You are talking live concerts and I am thinking of commercial recordings that are rarely "live". I understand what you are saying about audience noise etc. My gripes are about techniques that produce results that are not believable when played back in a home environment.
BTW, I have played in orchestras, concert bands and chamber groups. My most satisfying memories are playing in a recorder consort, set up in a square facing each other in a small living room.
Bob
We are apples/oranges here. You are talking live concerts and I am thinking of commercial recordings that are rarely "live". I understand what you are saying about audience noise etc. My gripes are about techniques that produce results that are not believable when played back in a home environment.
BTW, I have played in orchestras, concert bands and chamber groups. My most satisfying memories are playing in a recorder consort, set up in a square facing each other in a small living room.
Bob
Bob. Agreed. There good and bad recording engineers. In the past multitrack recording used gear And rooms that could cost in the millions. You couldn't just walk into these rooms and record. Now anyone with a computer and a couple of mics can be a "recording engineer ". Between that and the loudness wars and mixing for ear buds, is any wonder there a lot of bad recordings.
Sorry, pressed the wrong button. I completely agree with all of Bob's points.
I remember doing a voice and small ensemble recording (about 10 players) and the producer explained that he was using just 2 mics in one place (sum and difference). They had spent a long long time to find the definitive spot to put them. The engineer was going to leave the controls alone, and no post performance juggling.
There was a real buzz from the musicians knowing that they were in control of the finished sound.
I remember doing a voice and small ensemble recording (about 10 players) and the producer explained that he was using just 2 mics in one place (sum and difference). They had spent a long long time to find the definitive spot to put them. The engineer was going to leave the controls alone, and no post performance juggling.
There was a real buzz from the musicians knowing that they were in control of the finished sound.
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