More Selenium 18SWS800
Instead of some isobaric arrangement here is the 18SWS800 as a dual tapped horn. I'm not so sure about the restriction in the middle, but, you just cannot argue with David's Wizard. And this would take some serious power, provided the correct low-cut filter.
Regards,
Instead of some isobaric arrangement here is the 18SWS800 as a dual tapped horn. I'm not so sure about the restriction in the middle, but, you just cannot argue with David's Wizard. And this would take some serious power, provided the correct low-cut filter.
Regards,
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yeah its a very intrigueing driver, although their xmax is rated at 10% THD, so im not sure you want to push it too much further than that, but it does mean that its got some extra room to moove if someone (me) makes a mistake with the volume knob.
i cant seem to find something with a better combination of somewhat horn suited params, power handling, and xmax, so i might go and built this box, TH always seems to run out of gas a little before RMS which is scaring me, especially for the program material im going to be running through it.
so unless anyone sees any major problems with my deisgn, this seems to be the both bandwidth/spl i can get out of a given box size(although i will need to use an EQ). i recently sold my guitar, so i should be buying the first pair of drivers soon, and next paycheck will be drivers for tops.
i cant seem to find something with a better combination of somewhat horn suited params, power handling, and xmax, so i might go and built this box, TH always seems to run out of gas a little before RMS which is scaring me, especially for the program material im going to be running through it.
so unless anyone sees any major problems with my deisgn, this seems to be the both bandwidth/spl i can get out of a given box size(although i will need to use an EQ). i recently sold my guitar, so i should be buying the first pair of drivers soon, and next paycheck will be drivers for tops.
xstephanx said:
Did I get that right, that to sim a pair of these cabinets, you model in 1 pi.. AND THEN you add 5db? or are you meaning that you'll ONLY wall load these, which is why you chose 1pi, and then to sim the pair, you add 5db.
Without a very solid wall and floor, you don't get to do both. Maybe I misunderstood... I don't see how a pair of these makes 140 from 40 on up. I'm seeing at 69volts 125@40 for a single cab, 130-131db@40 for a pair, which is a LONG ways from 140.
I'd also like to understand how you are going to build other than parabolic expansion using plywood?
Just giving you a double check, before you make sawdust.
jbell, and is set to 1pi becuase its for a pair of boxes, the curve that i get for a pair of these getting 97.98v(1200 watts,admittedly more than rms, but still less than the 1600watt program rating) sims this curve.
so above 60hz, its a bit over 140 at 1m, as i understand it, by using two boxes (and also two drivers) i get to double my powerhandling as well giving me 3db( i previously used 5, but now that i rethink the matter that was incorrect, so things are not quite as pretty as the picture i painted, i apolagize). so if i bring 40-60hz up 3db with an eq, it should be hitting ~ 138, from 40hz-60hz, climbing to a bit over 140db from 65ishhz on up, should be able to fill in the high end a bit so itll get close to 200, although i would rather cross lower.
i also plan to v-plate them(and take advantage of the rapidly expanding mouth end) which apparantly can give around 2db, so who knows, maybe 140 is possible anyway?
either way, id bet a pair of these would terrorize a crowd of 100 people.
but i could be wrong, which is why im asking you guys.
also, i plan to eventually move up to 4 or 8 bins, but to start i can only afford a pair.
regarding expansion, im just going to approximate it, thats what everyone else does for every other expansion in a bass horn, and it seems to not matter because of the frequencies that are being dealt with. have i once again been misled by my own thoughts?
so above 60hz, its a bit over 140 at 1m, as i understand it, by using two boxes (and also two drivers) i get to double my powerhandling as well giving me 3db( i previously used 5, but now that i rethink the matter that was incorrect, so things are not quite as pretty as the picture i painted, i apolagize). so if i bring 40-60hz up 3db with an eq, it should be hitting ~ 138, from 40hz-60hz, climbing to a bit over 140db from 65ishhz on up, should be able to fill in the high end a bit so itll get close to 200, although i would rather cross lower.
i also plan to v-plate them(and take advantage of the rapidly expanding mouth end) which apparantly can give around 2db, so who knows, maybe 140 is possible anyway?
either way, id bet a pair of these would terrorize a crowd of 100 people.
but i could be wrong, which is why im asking you guys.
also, i plan to eventually move up to 4 or 8 bins, but to start i can only afford a pair.
regarding expansion, im just going to approximate it, thats what everyone else does for every other expansion in a bass horn, and it seems to not matter because of the frequencies that are being dealt with. have i once again been misled by my own thoughts?
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Going from 2pi to 1pi in hornresp, already gives you the 3db for the doubling of cabinet count, and the 3db for doubling power. There's nothing additional to add on top of it to sim your 2nd cabinet.
Also, power compression / voice coil heating makes high power handling drivers suspect on max output over more than a few seconds iffy at best. I'm EXTREMELY suspect of a 3200watt driver, actually providing additional output from 1000w to 3200watt.
Check out what a 3015lf does at 40hz in this particular design from 100 to 800 watts. http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/489.html
Last, you need to stay within your 6.5 xmax for the most part, not your xlim, no way to do that with almost 100v on your design.
I did a little playing around and came up with a smaller 434 liter cabinet, that I think will ultimately sound better (no eq required) stays under 6.5mm in passband and max 12mm just under 40hz at 60v, and is much easier to figure out how to build using plywood. It also plays 135db for your pair of cabinets@60v from 40 on up. A stack of 4, is downright impressive.
Yes, 135 should work very well. and if you can find a corner inside for .5loading... it should work VERY WELL.
As to v-plating. That works on BFM designs because of the steep flare of the last several inches, and a 90degree setup with a top panel actually continues the horn flare. If you want to do this, you need to actually design your cabinets so that when in this position the horn expansion is preserved.
Also, power compression / voice coil heating makes high power handling drivers suspect on max output over more than a few seconds iffy at best. I'm EXTREMELY suspect of a 3200watt driver, actually providing additional output from 1000w to 3200watt.
Check out what a 3015lf does at 40hz in this particular design from 100 to 800 watts. http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/489.html
Last, you need to stay within your 6.5 xmax for the most part, not your xlim, no way to do that with almost 100v on your design.
I did a little playing around and came up with a smaller 434 liter cabinet, that I think will ultimately sound better (no eq required) stays under 6.5mm in passband and max 12mm just under 40hz at 60v, and is much easier to figure out how to build using plywood. It also plays 135db for your pair of cabinets@60v from 40 on up. A stack of 4, is downright impressive.
Yes, 135 should work very well. and if you can find a corner inside for .5loading... it should work VERY WELL.
As to v-plating. That works on BFM designs because of the steep flare of the last several inches, and a 90degree setup with a top panel actually continues the horn flare. If you want to do this, you need to actually design your cabinets so that when in this position the horn expansion is preserved.
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i see. i misunderstood what the ang variable took into account, but 135db shoudl still be more than adequarte for a 100 person audience by my thinking.
regarding staying within xmax, are you so sure it matters so much? ive been hanging out in places other than diyaudio recently, and it seems that there are alot of people out there putting rediculous amounts of power (1500-2400w a driver?!) into scoops and folded horns, (specifically with electronic music) that i would have a hard time imagining that an extra 3 or 4mm out of xmax, on a driver that has a quoted "maximum excursion before damage rating" of 24mm one way would cause catastrophe. there are times when a little extra distortion for a little extra volume, is an OK trade off.
ill get on my flame suit now?
also, how can i figure out how to make v loading work? it seems like a really good trade off, i mean, when was the last time $15 got you an free decibel or two?
also as i understand there are more gains with horns that you wouldnt see with direct radiators, so there are more things to take into accoiunt than 3db for doubling of power, and another 3db for doubling of motor/cone area. Directivity for example, which you gain the more horn mouths you couple together, not to mention a slightly extended real world path length. does horn resp sim these gains as well?
you recieved 2.5db gain more than you predicted when stacked, most likely due to directivity, did you not?
sorry if this seems like i am attacking the knowledge you bestow upon me jbell, i really do appreciate you taking the time to help fiddle with my ideas, but i was always the kid in my class who challenged everything he heard.
regarding staying within xmax, are you so sure it matters so much? ive been hanging out in places other than diyaudio recently, and it seems that there are alot of people out there putting rediculous amounts of power (1500-2400w a driver?!) into scoops and folded horns, (specifically with electronic music) that i would have a hard time imagining that an extra 3 or 4mm out of xmax, on a driver that has a quoted "maximum excursion before damage rating" of 24mm one way would cause catastrophe. there are times when a little extra distortion for a little extra volume, is an OK trade off.
ill get on my flame suit now?
also, how can i figure out how to make v loading work? it seems like a really good trade off, i mean, when was the last time $15 got you an free decibel or two?
also as i understand there are more gains with horns that you wouldnt see with direct radiators, so there are more things to take into accoiunt than 3db for doubling of power, and another 3db for doubling of motor/cone area. Directivity for example, which you gain the more horn mouths you couple together, not to mention a slightly extended real world path length. does horn resp sim these gains as well?
you recieved 2.5db gain more than you predicted when stacked, most likely due to directivity, did you not?
sorry if this seems like i am attacking the knowledge you bestow upon me jbell, i really do appreciate you taking the time to help fiddle with my ideas, but i was always the kid in my class who challenged everything he heard.
no worries -- I question everything. And I am no expert... just someone who's done some PA in his life, and learned a little.
If you watch what hornresp does, it actually does more than just add 6db when you go from 2, to 1, to .5. I think it does a VERY good simulation of what happens in 2pi space as you go from 1 to 2 to 4 cabinets, or what happens to a single cabinet in half,quarter,eighth space. I've learned to trust the math david uses in hornresp. It works.
As far as exceeding xmax, all I can tell you is I've only blown one driver in my entire life, and it was a tweeter while listening to classical music. I've never blown a driver on rock. I'm conservative to the core on audio, and want the cleanest, most accurate representation of the music possible. I don't want artificial this or that, distortion, or whatever...
I take a RMS rating of a driver, not the music program, and assume it can only handle 50% before serious power compression takes hold. I also assume that if I know the xmax of a design (THANK YOU DAVID) that I should never exceed it within the passband for the long term.
If you follow the link I posted, that 450watt RMS 3015lf, ran out of gas at 200watts, and didn't get any louder from there on up. I think that measurement follows the 50% rule of thumb very well.
These 2 rules for me, have prevented me from melting down even neo magnet drivers. PA to me, is kinda like running the mile. If you sprint the first 400yards, you have nothing the rest of the race. However, if you run at 50% the entire race, the last song can be killer.. just like the last 100yard kick of a mile.
hope this helps.
If you watch what hornresp does, it actually does more than just add 6db when you go from 2, to 1, to .5. I think it does a VERY good simulation of what happens in 2pi space as you go from 1 to 2 to 4 cabinets, or what happens to a single cabinet in half,quarter,eighth space. I've learned to trust the math david uses in hornresp. It works.
As far as exceeding xmax, all I can tell you is I've only blown one driver in my entire life, and it was a tweeter while listening to classical music. I've never blown a driver on rock. I'm conservative to the core on audio, and want the cleanest, most accurate representation of the music possible. I don't want artificial this or that, distortion, or whatever...
I take a RMS rating of a driver, not the music program, and assume it can only handle 50% before serious power compression takes hold. I also assume that if I know the xmax of a design (THANK YOU DAVID) that I should never exceed it within the passband for the long term.
If you follow the link I posted, that 450watt RMS 3015lf, ran out of gas at 200watts, and didn't get any louder from there on up. I think that measurement follows the 50% rule of thumb very well.
These 2 rules for me, have prevented me from melting down even neo magnet drivers. PA to me, is kinda like running the mile. If you sprint the first 400yards, you have nothing the rest of the race. However, if you run at 50% the entire race, the last song can be killer.. just like the last 100yard kick of a mile.
hope this helps.
Hey Jim ... I really like your 3015LF horn (the one I documented for you). It also sims well with the Eminence 4015LF and the
18sound 18TBX100 (if you have a shoe-horn). The 18sound is more expensive, but 4dB louder.
It's an easy cabinet to build, and all flares can be caulked from the mouth.
~Don
18sound 18TBX100 (if you have a shoe-horn). The 18sound is more expensive, but 4dB louder.
It's an easy cabinet to build, and all flares can be caulked from the mouth.
~Don
jbell you make valid points.
however after simming your design, it runs out of xmax before it actually hits 40hz. this is no good. it hits high40s and then its done. but im going to play around with it as a starting point.
however after simming your design, it runs out of xmax before it actually hits 40hz. this is no good. it hits high40s and then its done. but im going to play around with it as a starting point.
xstephanx, yes, the sim I gave you exceeded xmax at 60volts at 40hz. I understand that. It's well under your xlim, but violates my own statement of keeping within xmax in the passband.
Here's why I did it, and how I think that's a valid 'fudge' to a design. An open E on a bass guitar is 40hz. It's well known that the first harmonic at 80hz is 10db louder than at 40hz. The main sound you hear (also because your ear is more sensitive at 80hz, than at 40hz) is 80. However without 40, 80 just doesn't 'feel' right. So with that in mind, you need 40 to come through as loud as 80, when playing test tones. However in the real world with music, you won't ever play 40hz as loud as you will 80hz, unless you have a pretty severe 40hz bump up on your eq. Which means that in practice, where you see 80hz bumping into 6.5mm xmax at 60volts, you really won't hit 12mm at 40hz.
So... all in all, I think it's a valid starting point, and well balanced on xmax through the passband of 40-100. The xmax that I'm more concerned with, is the 80hz xmax, not the 40hz xmax.
Attached is a pair of cabinets at 60volts. If I were to set up an eq for this, I'd 48db/oct HP at 40hz, +2db @55, Q5, and 24db/oct HP@100hz. That should give you roughly 'flat to 40' response.
anyone have another view on this?
Here's why I did it, and how I think that's a valid 'fudge' to a design. An open E on a bass guitar is 40hz. It's well known that the first harmonic at 80hz is 10db louder than at 40hz. The main sound you hear (also because your ear is more sensitive at 80hz, than at 40hz) is 80. However without 40, 80 just doesn't 'feel' right. So with that in mind, you need 40 to come through as loud as 80, when playing test tones. However in the real world with music, you won't ever play 40hz as loud as you will 80hz, unless you have a pretty severe 40hz bump up on your eq. Which means that in practice, where you see 80hz bumping into 6.5mm xmax at 60volts, you really won't hit 12mm at 40hz.
So... all in all, I think it's a valid starting point, and well balanced on xmax through the passband of 40-100. The xmax that I'm more concerned with, is the 80hz xmax, not the 40hz xmax.
Attached is a pair of cabinets at 60volts. If I were to set up an eq for this, I'd 48db/oct HP at 40hz, +2db @55, Q5, and 24db/oct HP@100hz. That should give you roughly 'flat to 40' response.
anyone have another view on this?
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i hate to say it jbell, but I have another view about this! this is exactly what i meant about how you need a horn that can play lower than you need, so the highpass occurs when its around xmax.
this system primarily will be playing alot of house, and jungle/drum n bass. both these types of music have synth bass lines that reach extremely low, sawtooths, and all sorts of other unpleasant stuff for your speakers (and in some peoples cases, their ears😀 ). 40hz should be adequate for house, but theres stuff in jungle that reaches lower than 30. ive come to accept that 40 is abotu as good as its gonna get for a PA right now, and jungle is still lsitenable
so while for a rock band, you have a point. for electronic stuff, i think ill kill it.
but like i said, it was a good starting point, and if you up the length of the first section to 110, and the second to 140, things are safe down to 40hz, even with RMS input( at the expense ofa little flatness, and of course size).
heres the type of prgram material theyre going to get alot of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILkHTfShMSk
this system primarily will be playing alot of house, and jungle/drum n bass. both these types of music have synth bass lines that reach extremely low, sawtooths, and all sorts of other unpleasant stuff for your speakers (and in some peoples cases, their ears😀 ). 40hz should be adequate for house, but theres stuff in jungle that reaches lower than 30. ive come to accept that 40 is abotu as good as its gonna get for a PA right now, and jungle is still lsitenable
so while for a rock band, you have a point. for electronic stuff, i think ill kill it.
but like i said, it was a good starting point, and if you up the length of the first section to 110, and the second to 140, things are safe down to 40hz, even with RMS input( at the expense ofa little flatness, and of course size).
heres the type of prgram material theyre going to get alot of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILkHTfShMSk
You have a better recording? because smaart says this music is mainly focused on 60hz harmonic from the 30hz fundamental, which could be due to it's compressed format.
However, my guess is that there really is 30db difference from 30hz to 60hz.
(that's loopback, so no mic or speakers involved)
I did some close analysis of that recording, and yes you have content down in the 20hz range. HOWEVER, you will run out of xmax at 80hz, LONG before you run out of xmax even at 20hz with the sim that I posted, because of concentration of 60-80hz content.
I stand by that design for your style of music
However, my guess is that there really is 30db difference from 30hz to 60hz.
(that's loopback, so no mic or speakers involved)
I did some close analysis of that recording, and yes you have content down in the 20hz range. HOWEVER, you will run out of xmax at 80hz, LONG before you run out of xmax even at 20hz with the sim that I posted, because of concentration of 60-80hz content.
I stand by that design for your style of music
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I'm still pretty slammed folks but....
The first three cabs have survived 2 weeks of combat...seriously.
For a 6,000 sq ft club you need 6 to be safe.
The last cab is 1/2 way built as I need it this wekend.
I borrowed a couple of 18" rcf loaded bandpass boxes to stick in the middle as it's goung to be a LOUD weekend.
The lower you go, the more drivers you need...period.
I agree with JBELL that you need the 40hz to make 80 feel right especially as it's the first harmonic 🙂.
I kicked up dance music on my system last week and it sounded great. Plenty of run to the bathroom low end. Keep in mind that if you are going to run around making 20-35hz bass on a regular basis you had better be prepared for the consequences if you are going to be loud. (You know you are!)
1) structural damage and liability to the venues you play.
Most buildings are not made to handle that kind of pounding.
Certain roof structures will actually extend the range away from the venue damaging nearby buildings. Unless it's an earthquake proof building...you BETTER keep feeling the walls inside and outside during the show.
2) Medical liability. A couple of hours in front of bass bins putting out that kind of low end at high spl will result in damage to a human's internal organs. I have done it myself by accident.
Standing in front of such a system can twist your insides up.
The effect is also similar to what happens when you throw a hand grenade into a tunnel full of enemy soldiers. The cuncussion from the grenade in a small space is such that it puverizes anyone in there. I.E. bursting internal organs and shattering bones 100 feet down the tunnel. BE VERY AWARE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO A RAVE WITH 20-30HZ SUBS.
Live sound is a responsibility. It will only take ONE building collapse, or a few cuncussion related emergency room visits to instigate government regulation, licensing and unaffordable insurance into our industry. Some of us already pay a bunch for insurance.
I have personally, intentionally, destroyed a small cinderblock structure with soundwaves based on experiments done by the US military in the 70's. It's interesting because the building simply crumbles once you have hit it's resonant frequency hard enough. Since then, I pay close attention to the structures I play in.
Sorry for the rant based on real world experience, but it may save a few lives. Below 40hz...KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN.
The first three cabs have survived 2 weeks of combat...seriously.
For a 6,000 sq ft club you need 6 to be safe.
The last cab is 1/2 way built as I need it this wekend.
I borrowed a couple of 18" rcf loaded bandpass boxes to stick in the middle as it's goung to be a LOUD weekend.
The lower you go, the more drivers you need...period.
I agree with JBELL that you need the 40hz to make 80 feel right especially as it's the first harmonic 🙂.
I kicked up dance music on my system last week and it sounded great. Plenty of run to the bathroom low end. Keep in mind that if you are going to run around making 20-35hz bass on a regular basis you had better be prepared for the consequences if you are going to be loud. (You know you are!)
1) structural damage and liability to the venues you play.
Most buildings are not made to handle that kind of pounding.
Certain roof structures will actually extend the range away from the venue damaging nearby buildings. Unless it's an earthquake proof building...you BETTER keep feeling the walls inside and outside during the show.
2) Medical liability. A couple of hours in front of bass bins putting out that kind of low end at high spl will result in damage to a human's internal organs. I have done it myself by accident.
Standing in front of such a system can twist your insides up.
The effect is also similar to what happens when you throw a hand grenade into a tunnel full of enemy soldiers. The cuncussion from the grenade in a small space is such that it puverizes anyone in there. I.E. bursting internal organs and shattering bones 100 feet down the tunnel. BE VERY AWARE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO A RAVE WITH 20-30HZ SUBS.
Live sound is a responsibility. It will only take ONE building collapse, or a few cuncussion related emergency room visits to instigate government regulation, licensing and unaffordable insurance into our industry. Some of us already pay a bunch for insurance.
I have personally, intentionally, destroyed a small cinderblock structure with soundwaves based on experiments done by the US military in the 70's. It's interesting because the building simply crumbles once you have hit it's resonant frequency hard enough. Since then, I pay close attention to the structures I play in.
Sorry for the rant based on real world experience, but it may save a few lives. Below 40hz...KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN.
jbell, first off, where can i get that program? it looks extremely educational!
second off, thats house, so its not the genre im more "worried" about, but the system will be getting used for alot of that type of music, so its good to know the ratio of harmonic to fundamental material.
im more "worried" about jungle.
http://www.zshare.net/audio/56874470ef631d56/
run that song through the spectrum analyser if you would be so kind. i suspect it has more info down low than the house track.
second off, thats house, so its not the genre im more "worried" about, but the system will be getting used for alot of that type of music, so its good to know the ratio of harmonic to fundamental material.
im more "worried" about jungle.
http://www.zshare.net/audio/56874470ef631d56/
run that song through the spectrum analyser if you would be so kind. i suspect it has more info down low than the house track.
screamersusa said:
dont be silly, the rave scene in north america died a long time ago!
😀
also, good to hear that the bins (and you too by the sounds of it) are getting a good workout!
im surprised it takes 6 bins for an 80x80' room, i see most clubs around here do alot more with alot less.
are there any reports of a concert hall or club actually falling down due to extreme bass?
Here's a pic of the biggest hit I could find in that jungle recording.
36hz was 15db down from 60hz.
LISTEN TO SCREAMERS !!!!! Huge output below 40 is something to be careful with.
You are talking 100 people, so the room is small, so you probably have some pretty good room gain. Which means if your sub is -25db 20hz vs 40hz, and you have 12db of 20hz room gain to offset, you are getting some reasonable output at 20hz.
Smaart is not cheap, but very useful for someone who does acoustics and sets up systems on a regular basis. You may be able to find something cheaper like truerta, or something like that that's in your price range.
Again.. the WAY DOWN LOW content that everyone raves about... well, really isn't as strong as people think. Keep that in mind when designing a system.
BTW, the jungle 'sounds' lower, because it's centered on 50hz, not 60hz.
36hz was 15db down from 60hz.
LISTEN TO SCREAMERS !!!!! Huge output below 40 is something to be careful with.
You are talking 100 people, so the room is small, so you probably have some pretty good room gain. Which means if your sub is -25db 20hz vs 40hz, and you have 12db of 20hz room gain to offset, you are getting some reasonable output at 20hz.
Smaart is not cheap, but very useful for someone who does acoustics and sets up systems on a regular basis. You may be able to find something cheaper like truerta, or something like that that's in your price range.
Again.. the WAY DOWN LOW content that everyone raves about... well, really isn't as strong as people think. Keep that in mind when designing a system.
BTW, the jungle 'sounds' lower, because it's centered on 50hz, not 60hz.
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jbell, thank you so much for running smaart on that track. i thought the jungle track would have a bit more kick to it than that! if excursion in hornresp is calculated with a -0db sine wave, then even extremely bass heavy material should give you much less excursion than predicted in the bottom two octaves.
also, this is the first time ive actually gotten words of warning from an actual safety standpoint. are you telling me, dont get too nuts at a house party, or the drywall, if not the whole wall, is coming down?
also, this is the first time ive actually gotten words of warning from an actual safety standpoint. are you telling me, dont get too nuts at a house party, or the drywall, if not the whole wall, is coming down?
I've had to get an IBC commercial contractor license for some of the stuff I do. (even though I'm really a geek) So, I've had a chance to see some of the shoddy work that some of the residential and commercial crews do.....
IF your ceiling drywall is not put up with adhesive/screws... then yes, it could come down on your head.
A lot of 50's era construction was nails only, however anything that passed inspection lately should be ok.
Is this a newer, or order building?
IF your ceiling drywall is not put up with adhesive/screws... then yes, it could come down on your head.
A lot of 50's era construction was nails only, however anything that passed inspection lately should be ok.
Is this a newer, or order building?
well im going to be hauling these around to a bunch of places. one of them(where this system will get used the most in the beggining) is a loft with concrete floors/brick walls, so i wouldnt worry about there.
im probably going to throw some house partys though, my house was built in the 60s, and i plan to do it in the basement(the basement is just one big room)
something tells me my parents wouldnt be too pleased about bits of the cieling falling down.
im probably going to throw some house partys though, my house was built in the 60s, and i plan to do it in the basement(the basement is just one big room)
something tells me my parents wouldnt be too pleased about bits of the cieling falling down.