Re: BG high end
P.S. My reference for hearing tests are dynaudio d28s and my current reference system includes BG neo 8s
you are using tweeters than roll off at
13khz at a large rate to test hearing
and people can't hear 18khz tones?
no wonder 🙂
Speaking of fiberglas, I had some old
Focal fiberglass tweeters that had a very
nice natural sound, way better than
the newer Kevlars - at that time..
Later, Focal discontinues the fiberglass
line... strange...
All this talk about line arrays, forum
fatigue -- time to buy Bose
P.S. My reference for hearing tests are dynaudio d28s and my current reference system includes BG neo 8s
you are using tweeters than roll off at
13khz at a large rate to test hearing
and people can't hear 18khz tones?
no wonder 🙂
Speaking of fiberglas, I had some old
Focal fiberglass tweeters that had a very
nice natural sound, way better than
the newer Kevlars - at that time..
Later, Focal discontinues the fiberglass
line... strange...
All this talk about line arrays, forum
fatigue -- time to buy Bose
Brett;
I saw your thread about the line arrays
at the home theater forum.. and how
the moderator made a point to say
not to advertise group purchases .. 🙄
I bailed from that forum last year,
it's communist 😱 🙁
If your subjective opinion doesn't
agree with the rest of the cronies,
you get flamed....
They try to steer you into their line
of thinking.
I saw your thread about the line arrays
at the home theater forum.. and how
the moderator made a point to say
not to advertise group purchases .. 🙄
I bailed from that forum last year,
it's communist 😱 🙁
If your subjective opinion doesn't
agree with the rest of the cronies,
you get flamed....
They try to steer you into their line
of thinking.
Yeah, I lost a lot of interest in posting there after a manufacturer got just a slap on the wrist for something he should have been banned for per their mission statement/rules. Me and one of the moderators politely went round n' round about it, but they let him skate anyway. So much for holding a manufacturer to a higher standard. 
GM
GM
thylantyr,
I like the way you think! 🙂 I checked out the FR Plot for the
Ribbons you are using.. Nice indeed! I will be happy with what I
am using for the money but the tweeters you picked look very
robust and look to perform very well!
The HTF is an interesting place and I agree some of the Mods do
a horrid job of it.. They cater to one manufactuer who they most
likely have a vested interest in, and shun another. I am putting
together a group purchase on the LA Drivers simply because I
feel it's the only way some of us can afford to get into it. I don't
work for John but I have purchased merchandise from him and he
has treated me like I matter and to me that's important.
I can think of another vendor who has dropped the ball on a
particular driver and never has really made it right IMHO.
GM,
I couldn't imagine what Moderator you speak of 🙂
Jim,
Jim, point taken... They may be just woven glass... Either way
they are a well built and affordable driver that I would put against
any of the other drivers in the price range. Normal price for these
7" drivers is $38 a piece.. There are numerous great drivers in
that price range so don't consider John's 7" Woven Glass to be
any less of a driver.
I like the way you think! 🙂 I checked out the FR Plot for the
Ribbons you are using.. Nice indeed! I will be happy with what I
am using for the money but the tweeters you picked look very
robust and look to perform very well!
The HTF is an interesting place and I agree some of the Mods do
a horrid job of it.. They cater to one manufactuer who they most
likely have a vested interest in, and shun another. I am putting
together a group purchase on the LA Drivers simply because I
feel it's the only way some of us can afford to get into it. I don't
work for John but I have purchased merchandise from him and he
has treated me like I matter and to me that's important.
I can think of another vendor who has dropped the ball on a
particular driver and never has really made it right IMHO.
GM,
I couldn't imagine what Moderator you speak of 🙂
Jim,
Jim, point taken... They may be just woven glass... Either way
they are a well built and affordable driver that I would put against
any of the other drivers in the price range. Normal price for these
7" drivers is $38 a piece.. There are numerous great drivers in
that price range so don't consider John's 7" Woven Glass to be
any less of a driver.
all very funny
This has been an entertaining thread.
It is fun to watch as Jim tries to drive home technical correctness while many of you are dead set on learning your lessons the hard way by making the errors. Still it may be more fun that way.
Maybe one mans errors is another mans meet objectives. What is nothing to one person are shortcomings that can't be accepted by another.
But really though, I would give Jim's words of wisdom more value than some of you have.
I will hit only a few points from the discussion.
Do the Neo's play high enough? Some that have never heard them think them not to.
First of all, I can hear a narrow test tone of 19.5kHz at one meter and with one watt (barely), and 19kHz pretty clearly. It may still have some bleeding over a little from 18kHz or even 17kHz but not much.
While the Alpha LS may be down some in the top half of the last octave, I can not detect it with any music, nor has anyone else that has heard them.
The Neo 8's do in fact extend to 40kHz too. I think it plenty high enough.
I can put you in touch with plenty of people if you like.
Secondly, I find it really interesting that you guys are talking about augmenting the full range driver with others to cover the baffle step loss.... Even Steve is talking about dropping some components in there. I am laughing now...
Hey Steve, remember this over here?
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16168&perpage=15&highlight=Danny&pagenumber=3
I said:
You guys are getting close.
Like a said before, let the single main driver play nearly full range. Pad the bottom with high quality caps so it won't get over driven.
You can series parallel a group of drivers below it to cover the bottom end. They need to be about 6db stronger in output than the full range driver at the top.
Reason being is you will have about 6db worth of baffle step loss and it will even out real well.
See an example here on the main page:
http://www.creativesound.ca/index.html
I believe they are called the Spires.
I guarantee you those sound good.
I did basically the same design using some proprietary 4" woofers for one of our commercial accounts (available soon) , and in a side by side A/B comparison they smoked a pair of the Jordan's.
The Jordan speaker was the design that Jim Griffin designed with some baffle step compensation that won one of the DIY events a few years back.
I'd highly recommend trying the Spires as soon as they are available. I am sure they won't cost much either.
You guys will like this typology. No phase shifts throughout all of the critical ranges. Off axis imaging that is the same in all directions. Tight, punchy, well controlled bass. No baffle step loss. Good low end extension. Good high end extension. No comb filtering or cancellation anywhere. Good sensitivity (87 to 88db) Good power handling. Easy to drive 8 Ohms. Needs no stands. Narrow baffle/high WAF.
This has been an entertaining thread.
It is fun to watch as Jim tries to drive home technical correctness while many of you are dead set on learning your lessons the hard way by making the errors. Still it may be more fun that way.
Maybe one mans errors is another mans meet objectives. What is nothing to one person are shortcomings that can't be accepted by another.
But really though, I would give Jim's words of wisdom more value than some of you have.
I will hit only a few points from the discussion.
Do the Neo's play high enough? Some that have never heard them think them not to.
First of all, I can hear a narrow test tone of 19.5kHz at one meter and with one watt (barely), and 19kHz pretty clearly. It may still have some bleeding over a little from 18kHz or even 17kHz but not much.
While the Alpha LS may be down some in the top half of the last octave, I can not detect it with any music, nor has anyone else that has heard them.
The Neo 8's do in fact extend to 40kHz too. I think it plenty high enough.
I can put you in touch with plenty of people if you like.
Secondly, I find it really interesting that you guys are talking about augmenting the full range driver with others to cover the baffle step loss.... Even Steve is talking about dropping some components in there. I am laughing now...
Hey Steve, remember this over here?
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16168&perpage=15&highlight=Danny&pagenumber=3
I said:
You guys are getting close.
Like a said before, let the single main driver play nearly full range. Pad the bottom with high quality caps so it won't get over driven.
You can series parallel a group of drivers below it to cover the bottom end. They need to be about 6db stronger in output than the full range driver at the top.
Reason being is you will have about 6db worth of baffle step loss and it will even out real well.
See an example here on the main page:
http://www.creativesound.ca/index.html
I believe they are called the Spires.
I guarantee you those sound good.
I did basically the same design using some proprietary 4" woofers for one of our commercial accounts (available soon) , and in a side by side A/B comparison they smoked a pair of the Jordan's.
The Jordan speaker was the design that Jim Griffin designed with some baffle step compensation that won one of the DIY events a few years back.
I'd highly recommend trying the Spires as soon as they are available. I am sure they won't cost much either.
You guys will like this typology. No phase shifts throughout all of the critical ranges. Off axis imaging that is the same in all directions. Tight, punchy, well controlled bass. No baffle step loss. Good low end extension. Good high end extension. No comb filtering or cancellation anywhere. Good sensitivity (87 to 88db) Good power handling. Easy to drive 8 Ohms. Needs no stands. Narrow baffle/high WAF.
Danny,
FWIW I am not taking Jim's words in vain. It's just that the things
he has pointed out to me are already known like "you should
always demo" well you can't always demo so we have to take
some risks.. I have faith in the designer I know he will impliment
the drivers correctly and he has the equipment to measure and
design and measure again.
As for driver materials or cost.. The price that I will be paying and
the price that any others that get in with me on a GP will be far
less than any currently available Line Array plus this will include
the CNC Routed Baffels for everyone on the GP..... That's not
something any other kit offers (and certainly not at this price).
As for the BG's.. They are great drivers no doubt about it.. Hey
I wanted to do an LA with RD50's and 5.25 mids... I just don't
want to wait for the design to be finalized by the guy that is
working on them. But when they are done I bet they will sound
great..
Sure they roll off.. But every speaker has a design flaw.. There are
soudnds WELL above the range of human hearing that influence
the sounds we DO hear.. Under and Over Tone's... And I don't
know of any speaker that can reproduce all of the frequencies
that extend well above what we hear.. So we settle for what we
can hear...
FWIW I am not taking Jim's words in vain. It's just that the things
he has pointed out to me are already known like "you should
always demo" well you can't always demo so we have to take
some risks.. I have faith in the designer I know he will impliment
the drivers correctly and he has the equipment to measure and
design and measure again.
As for driver materials or cost.. The price that I will be paying and
the price that any others that get in with me on a GP will be far
less than any currently available Line Array plus this will include
the CNC Routed Baffels for everyone on the GP..... That's not
something any other kit offers (and certainly not at this price).
As for the BG's.. They are great drivers no doubt about it.. Hey
I wanted to do an LA with RD50's and 5.25 mids... I just don't
want to wait for the design to be finalized by the guy that is
working on them. But when they are done I bet they will sound
great..
Sure they roll off.. But every speaker has a design flaw.. There are
soudnds WELL above the range of human hearing that influence
the sounds we DO hear.. Under and Over Tone's... And I don't
know of any speaker that can reproduce all of the frequencies
that extend well above what we hear.. So we settle for what we
can hear...
>I couldn't imagine what Moderator you speak of
====
Hmm, I have no complaints with him, he was just the messenger. Indeed, I've chatted with him a little at a couple of local DIY meets and he seems a good sort. Heck, he'd have to be to freely give his time to such a thankless task as a moderator. I've had the dubious honor several times to be one, but I prefer to help by answering questions when I can.
====
>This has been an entertaining thread.
====
And speaking of the 'favored one'.......
GM
====
Hmm, I have no complaints with him, he was just the messenger. Indeed, I've chatted with him a little at a couple of local DIY meets and he seems a good sort. Heck, he'd have to be to freely give his time to such a thankless task as a moderator. I've had the dubious honor several times to be one, but I prefer to help by answering questions when I can.
====
>This has been an entertaining thread.
====
And speaking of the 'favored one'.......
GM
GM,
Being a moderator is without a doubt a selfless job. I have been
on the net for more than a decade and in that time I have done
everything from moderation of UBB Forums to IRC Administrator
to Reviewer for web sites and everything inbetween.
I have in my time on the net learned that sometimes you have
to resist the urge to argue a point and just thank a person for
thier two cents and move on. There have been times where
someone's opinion wasn't asked for and may have even ticked
me off a bit.. And maybe 9 years ago I would have argued with
them.. Now I just nod and say thank you. I guess I am getting
old 🙂
I agree with you though, I would rather sit back and help people
if I can do so. I don't have a particular need nor the time to be
an admin or moderator these days.
Being a moderator is without a doubt a selfless job. I have been
on the net for more than a decade and in that time I have done
everything from moderation of UBB Forums to IRC Administrator
to Reviewer for web sites and everything inbetween.
I have in my time on the net learned that sometimes you have
to resist the urge to argue a point and just thank a person for
thier two cents and move on. There have been times where
someone's opinion wasn't asked for and may have even ticked
me off a bit.. And maybe 9 years ago I would have argued with
them.. Now I just nod and say thank you. I guess I am getting
old 🙂
I agree with you though, I would rather sit back and help people
if I can do so. I don't have a particular need nor the time to be
an admin or moderator these days.
When I ask questions I'm hoping to
get different opinions instead of
everybody repeating the "flavor of the month" response... then it's up to me
to sort the data and find a solution...
This is the reason I post weird ideas,
a non-standard point of view to allow
the user to think about it.. /fun
The SA8535 driver
Believe it or not, about 3 years ago
I was ready to accept an MTM or TMM
design with subwoofer like everybody
else... then one day I found this speaker
on the internet when doing web searches..
http://www.griffinspeaker.com/
Doh.. An interesting MTM design, beefy... the non standard look
gets me excited.. I think you pour sand
in the box too..
They use this SA driver with a custom
faceplate -- this was my inspiration -- to
get one and try it out .. it looked like
an unsual driver, not mainstream...
After experimenting and being mad,
the design grew to abnormal proportions - lol
If I didn't find this webpage, I would
have a normal system today, but
nope... I found the evil driver that breaks the bank -- eating peanut butter for years to be able to afford
this stuff......
get different opinions instead of
everybody repeating the "flavor of the month" response... then it's up to me
to sort the data and find a solution...
This is the reason I post weird ideas,
a non-standard point of view to allow
the user to think about it.. /fun
The SA8535 driver
Believe it or not, about 3 years ago
I was ready to accept an MTM or TMM
design with subwoofer like everybody
else... then one day I found this speaker
on the internet when doing web searches..
http://www.griffinspeaker.com/
Doh.. An interesting MTM design, beefy... the non standard look
gets me excited.. I think you pour sand
in the box too..
They use this SA driver with a custom
faceplate -- this was my inspiration -- to
get one and try it out .. it looked like
an unsual driver, not mainstream...
After experimenting and being mad,
the design grew to abnormal proportions - lol
If I didn't find this webpage, I would
have a normal system today, but
nope... I found the evil driver that breaks the bank -- eating peanut butter for years to be able to afford
this stuff......
Re: all very funny
And of course with the miracle of the Internet comes information sent from all around the world and many of the senders are acknowledged experts in their fields. It certainly gives one 'food for thought'.
Then what can the brain do except 'eat'? More than that, we owe it to ourselves to experiment, to listen to the effects.
And having thought and having experimented we then get to choose. Have you seen my choices?
Nonsuch 4 - Report on the state of play
I hope you keep laughing and I hope I'm still laughing after the Hi-Fi + review. 😱
There's something really great when the trials and experiments of a speaker designer in Surrey can provoke laughter in Texas. This Internet stuff is a miracle. Delighted to amuse, Danny.Danny said:
And of course with the miracle of the Internet comes information sent from all around the world and many of the senders are acknowledged experts in their fields. It certainly gives one 'food for thought'.
Then what can the brain do except 'eat'? More than that, we owe it to ourselves to experiment, to listen to the effects.
And having thought and having experimented we then get to choose. Have you seen my choices?
Nonsuch 4 - Report on the state of play
I hope you keep laughing and I hope I'm still laughing after the Hi-Fi + review. 😱
Still all grins here.
Yea, I am amused.
Seeing others shooting for the same goals from different angles, some taking the same path, trying the same things I once tried, reaching some same conclusions, and seeing it played out on the Internet... Yea it's kind of funny.
Seeing you experimenting with your design to allow the outer drivers to be limited to only the lower frequencies to compensate for baffle step loss and allowing only the two center speakers to play full range really seems ironic to me considering our earlier exchange here.
Not that I am claiming to be any motivation or anything 😀
But when I see you with only one driver playing full range with four below it covering the bottom end I will really bust a gut.
When are you bring those to the states?
I am hosting the 2003 Texas DIY event again this year in October and you are more than welcome to come.
😎
Yea, I am amused.
Seeing others shooting for the same goals from different angles, some taking the same path, trying the same things I once tried, reaching some same conclusions, and seeing it played out on the Internet... Yea it's kind of funny.
Seeing you experimenting with your design to allow the outer drivers to be limited to only the lower frequencies to compensate for baffle step loss and allowing only the two center speakers to play full range really seems ironic to me considering our earlier exchange here.
Not that I am claiming to be any motivation or anything 😀
But when I see you with only one driver playing full range with four below it covering the bottom end I will really bust a gut.
When are you bring those to the states?
I am hosting the 2003 Texas DIY event again this year in October and you are more than welcome to come.
😎
Jim Griffin's new white paper
Jim Griffin just released a new version of his line array white paper. It expands on his Linus paper and covers more design issues in greater depth. Highly recommended.
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf
Jim Griffin just released a new version of his line array white paper. It expands on his Linus paper and covers more design issues in greater depth. Highly recommended.
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf
Interesting thought on speaker design.
Taking a trip to the exotic hi-fi store
you find expensive systems and all
of them claim to be technically correct,
sound the best, etc.
Engineering perfection - yet they
all sound different
Everyone on the forums tries to be
technically correct in their design,
using test equipment and methods
because the ear can't pick up those
nuances (meaning it's inaudible) to
stive perfection also -- for fun -- and
to save $$$ because commercial
speakers are over priced compared
to DIY.
People go to speaker-fests with thier
speakers systems - designed correctly -
to compare the sonics -- they all sound
different.
I suppose the speaker designer
has a few choices --
1. Design for themselves.
2. Design for the masses.
3. Design not for sound -- but for
technical accuracy.
I see alot of item #3 on the internet
but what they really want is item #1,
they are talking the wrong path if they
want item #1.
Item #2 is "Bose". /hehe
So, if you truely want to design something for yourself to please a
sonic nerve, then you have to get
your hands dirty, spend more, buy
sample drivers and prepare to spend
hours and hours listening and experimenting to finally find the magic
setup that you like -- it can be easy or
painful - depending on critical you are.
Another option is to attend the speaker
fests -- to find something you like or
visit people on the internet (cost $$$
for the trip) to check out their systems.
Either way, it involves work, not just
pen/paper pushing.
My system has been in the works for 3 years now.. spend more -- build once
vs. spend less, build ten designs... in
the end, ten designs probably adds up
in cost too. catch 22 --> you have no
system yet just a bunch of sonic
impressions in your mind
edit: I did a silly test, I drove two of
my 13 ohm monster planars with
an ordinary Sony portable CD player.
I made a cable that plugs into the headphone jack to the speaker
terminals.. It worked and with
no crossover too... I can stand 10
feet away and hear music. Pretty
wild.. crossover-less, amplifier-less,
driven by pre-amp.
😎
Taking a trip to the exotic hi-fi store
you find expensive systems and all
of them claim to be technically correct,
sound the best, etc.
Engineering perfection - yet they
all sound different
Everyone on the forums tries to be
technically correct in their design,
using test equipment and methods
because the ear can't pick up those
nuances (meaning it's inaudible) to
stive perfection also -- for fun -- and
to save $$$ because commercial
speakers are over priced compared
to DIY.
People go to speaker-fests with thier
speakers systems - designed correctly -
to compare the sonics -- they all sound
different.
I suppose the speaker designer
has a few choices --
1. Design for themselves.
2. Design for the masses.
3. Design not for sound -- but for
technical accuracy.
I see alot of item #3 on the internet
but what they really want is item #1,
they are talking the wrong path if they
want item #1.
Item #2 is "Bose". /hehe
So, if you truely want to design something for yourself to please a
sonic nerve, then you have to get
your hands dirty, spend more, buy
sample drivers and prepare to spend
hours and hours listening and experimenting to finally find the magic
setup that you like -- it can be easy or
painful - depending on critical you are.
Another option is to attend the speaker
fests -- to find something you like or
visit people on the internet (cost $$$
for the trip) to check out their systems.
Either way, it involves work, not just
pen/paper pushing.
My system has been in the works for 3 years now.. spend more -- build once
vs. spend less, build ten designs... in
the end, ten designs probably adds up
in cost too. catch 22 --> you have no
system yet just a bunch of sonic
impressions in your mind
edit: I did a silly test, I drove two of
my 13 ohm monster planars with
an ordinary Sony portable CD player.
I made a cable that plugs into the headphone jack to the speaker
terminals.. It worked and with
no crossover too... I can stand 10
feet away and hear music. Pretty
wild.. crossover-less, amplifier-less,
driven by pre-amp.
😎
Re: Still all grins here.
My analyst tells me that I'm practically cured.
I'd probably have to get fit first ... all those Texans throwing burgers at me.
However, unless you're at the high end you have to design for the masses if you want to eat. The higher you go, the purer the air.
First study the rule book thoroughly, then burn it.
Of course your comments were motivation, Jim's too. It wasn't too difficult to test some simple capacitor/inductor circuits. Well worth trying - thanks very much - I love it here - can I go home now?Danny said:
Well, please keep this under wraps for now but I've got a new model on the drawing board. It's a two way vented speaker in a rectangular cabinet.
My analyst tells me that I'm practically cured.
I'm coming out to Colorado with the speakers for the first two weeks of September. I don't think that I'll have time to go anywhere else this time though. I'd love to be able to attend your event this year but doubt that I can. Also, I don't suppose the speakers qualify for DIY even though I enjoy hanging out here.
I'd probably have to get fit first ... all those Texans throwing burgers at me.
I agree with you thylantyr. Of course, ultimately you have to design for yourself. The sooner you realize that technical perfection is not possible, the sooner you become a designer.thylantyr said:
However, unless you're at the high end you have to design for the masses if you want to eat. The higher you go, the purer the air.
First study the rule book thoroughly, then burn it.
Hey DD,
No, 'fraid not. I've spent most of my time doing ~continuous minor, but time consuming, storm clean-up/repair and other maintenance chores. Those look really good, I really like the pancake model, reminds me of all those wall hanging monitors I built, except I bent the baffle to a knife edge to ~seamlessly blend to the wall.
Did you ever get to do any serious auditioning?
GM
No, 'fraid not. I've spent most of my time doing ~continuous minor, but time consuming, storm clean-up/repair and other maintenance chores. Those look really good, I really like the pancake model, reminds me of all those wall hanging monitors I built, except I bent the baffle to a knife edge to ~seamlessly blend to the wall.
Did you ever get to do any serious auditioning?
GM
GM said:
Not really... but we have pieces cut out for a set of fronts based on the longer design, and i have a plywood version of the CC in the process of finishing so i will get a chance.
dave
The DIY event.
We don't care, we welcome any commercial models. We even welcome White van speakers.
We had a guy bring a pair of them in last year.
http://www.gr-research.com/diyevents/white.htm
Those were worth so many laughs. It's still funny.
Last years highlights: http://www.gr-research.com/diyevents/diy2002results.htm
This years info: http://www.gr-research.com/diy2003.htm
Ah now, we won't throw buggers at you. We'll just laugh at your funny accent, like we don't have one and you're a weirdo. 😀
As for you and your friend thylantyr. They can sound good and still be accurate.
later... 🙂
We don't care, we welcome any commercial models. We even welcome White van speakers.
We had a guy bring a pair of them in last year.
http://www.gr-research.com/diyevents/white.htm
Those were worth so many laughs. It's still funny.
Last years highlights: http://www.gr-research.com/diyevents/diy2002results.htm
This years info: http://www.gr-research.com/diy2003.htm
Ah now, we won't throw buggers at you. We'll just laugh at your funny accent, like we don't have one and you're a weirdo. 😀
As for you and your friend thylantyr. They can sound good and still be accurate.
later... 🙂
- Status
- Not open for further replies.