Hi Guys,
I previously got some amazing advice here and all is working as expected. - thank you again.
however, system is so good, it is too good or too much 🙂
i am using tanoy ocv6 with adasta amp, 100V system. actually two separate systems in work unit but not fully separated by wall.
problem is, on one side people like to blast the music, and that disturbs everything else.
I would like to be able to limit the volume, but they do have access to the amp, so i need to be able to limit the volume whether they crank up the volume on amp or not. generally input is through persons phone - bluetooth.
I know on the 100V systems you can select wattage, however, that will not limit sound volume enough i believe.
is there a way I can maybe use potentiometer in between amp and wire to the first speaker or something similar?
i was thinking to limit volume knob on amp - how much it can be turned, but knowing people, they will think it got stucked and will force it till it breaks 😉
cheers
jo
I previously got some amazing advice here and all is working as expected. - thank you again.
however, system is so good, it is too good or too much 🙂
i am using tanoy ocv6 with adasta amp, 100V system. actually two separate systems in work unit but not fully separated by wall.
problem is, on one side people like to blast the music, and that disturbs everything else.
I would like to be able to limit the volume, but they do have access to the amp, so i need to be able to limit the volume whether they crank up the volume on amp or not. generally input is through persons phone - bluetooth.
I know on the 100V systems you can select wattage, however, that will not limit sound volume enough i believe.
is there a way I can maybe use potentiometer in between amp and wire to the first speaker or something similar?
i was thinking to limit volume knob on amp - how much it can be turned, but knowing people, they will think it got stucked and will force it till it breaks 😉
cheers
jo
Hi jo!
I didn't see your previous advice, but selecting the appropriate wattage taps on the individual speakers connected into the 100V line should allow you to control the volume in different areas.
Could you supply details of the number of speakers, the wattage taps available on each and how they are distributed in the work unit?
This^^^
On each speaker is a transformer, and a tap is selected. What wattage tap are they on now? If they are on say 5 watt, knock it down to 1 watt. Or whatever choice works best for you.
If you have to limit at the amp end, does this have any kind of loop jacks? Like preamp and power amp jacks that would normally be linked. If you you could wire an attenuator in between those jacks. It would not be apparent from the front control panel. And if necessary, you could put it inside the amp.
On each speaker is a transformer, and a tap is selected. What wattage tap are they on now? If they are on say 5 watt, knock it down to 1 watt. Or whatever choice works best for you.
If you have to limit at the amp end, does this have any kind of loop jacks? Like preamp and power amp jacks that would normally be linked. If you you could wire an attenuator in between those jacks. It would not be apparent from the front control panel. And if necessary, you could put it inside the amp.
Looking up the speaker you have, I see it has a switch on it that allows you to select 15W, 30W, or 60W.
They also make special 100V attenuator switches, which are basically a switched multi-tap transformer that gives you something like 11 different taps for even more control of the wattage to the speakers.
Changing the wattage switch or using an attenuator will reduce the volume, the limit though, will be how loud it is when they turn the amp all the way up.
For example, say that right now their speaker is set on 30W, and they turn the PA volume up halfway, making it too loud. So you change the speaker to 15W, now when it's not loud enough at half volume they might just try turning it up to full volume. The speakers won't be as loud but now you've got the amp cranked all the way up all the time. I'm not sure how that would effect the amp, it may be fine with that, or it might get distorted or run hot.
Usually the way these systems are set up is to use the amp volume control and the speaker taps to set the overall volume of the system, and then use individual attenuators to allow the users to vary the volume at each speaker. They should only have access to the attenuators, the amp volume control shouldn't be accessible to them.
Having Bluetooth access might make that difficult. Does the BT allow them to change the amps volume setting, or does it just allow them to stream content from their phones?
They also make special 100V attenuator switches, which are basically a switched multi-tap transformer that gives you something like 11 different taps for even more control of the wattage to the speakers.
Changing the wattage switch or using an attenuator will reduce the volume, the limit though, will be how loud it is when they turn the amp all the way up.
For example, say that right now their speaker is set on 30W, and they turn the PA volume up halfway, making it too loud. So you change the speaker to 15W, now when it's not loud enough at half volume they might just try turning it up to full volume. The speakers won't be as loud but now you've got the amp cranked all the way up all the time. I'm not sure how that would effect the amp, it may be fine with that, or it might get distorted or run hot.
Usually the way these systems are set up is to use the amp volume control and the speaker taps to set the overall volume of the system, and then use individual attenuators to allow the users to vary the volume at each speaker. They should only have access to the attenuators, the amp volume control shouldn't be accessible to them.
Having Bluetooth access might make that difficult. Does the BT allow them to change the amps volume setting, or does it just allow them to stream content from their phones?
I have done installs, and unauthorized fingers in the knobs is always an issue. We sometimes install covers over the controls. But frankly any screw I put into a cover can be removed by anyone wanting access.
Please draw and post a sketch showing your Gym , installed speakers and dimensions for better advice.
From your other post, I guess you have a high volume area, a much lower volume one just by it, no separating walls to speak of and 7 meter high ceilings.
IF you blast in one area (desirable for them) it will be very difficult to avoid spilling loud Music into non isolated contiguous "quiet" areas, but we NEED those sketches first.
Indicate spaces, dimensions, any additional notes such as roof height, actual speaker mounting height , plus wiring (just show with a single line who is connected to what) and the amplifiers driving the system.
In principle, and besides power tap selection, you might have one loud set amp feeding the loud area only, and another, set much lower, feeding everything else.
Each will have a volume control, of course, which may be adjusted with way higher precision than a crude 4 tap system.
Post clickable links to exact speakers and amplifiers you used.
From your other post, I guess you have a high volume area, a much lower volume one just by it, no separating walls to speak of and 7 meter high ceilings.
IF you blast in one area (desirable for them) it will be very difficult to avoid spilling loud Music into non isolated contiguous "quiet" areas, but we NEED those sketches first.
Indicate spaces, dimensions, any additional notes such as roof height, actual speaker mounting height , plus wiring (just show with a single line who is connected to what) and the amplifiers driving the system.
In principle, and besides power tap selection, you might have one loud set amp feeding the loud area only, and another, set much lower, feeding everything else.
Each will have a volume control, of course, which may be adjusted with way higher precision than a crude 4 tap system.
Post clickable links to exact speakers and amplifiers you used.
hi all, attached is the pics of the studio (smaller area with loudness problem) and the gym that gets the spillage.
right, purple numbers three tannoy ocv in the studio, grteen n, 6 ocv in n gym. the speakers are in line with mezzanine railing, so project music down to rubber floor. generally this is not an issue, unless we got crossfit in our studio and crossfitters like to blast music as loud as it goes. without upsetting them, i want to limit the music level, but in studio, coaches do have access to the amp. I had to put it in lockable cabinet as people figured there is no bluetooth code and played own music..
gym area, ocv`s are set to 15w, in the studio i believe are 15w too.
I was thinking in studio to lover speakers another maybe 30-40 cm.
studio amp: Adastra RM60B 5-Channel 100V Mixer/Amplifier with Bluetooth at Gear4music
gym amp: AVSL : Brands : Adastra : Product : Amplifiers : 100V Line : Full Size (19 inch) : 953.163UK
above you guys mentioned attenuator, how about something like this:
https://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/att-250-ws/attenuator-white-50w/dp/LS01613?st=100v attenuators
would I simply put attenuator in between amp and speaker?
cheers jo
right, purple numbers three tannoy ocv in the studio, grteen n, 6 ocv in n gym. the speakers are in line with mezzanine railing, so project music down to rubber floor. generally this is not an issue, unless we got crossfit in our studio and crossfitters like to blast music as loud as it goes. without upsetting them, i want to limit the music level, but in studio, coaches do have access to the amp. I had to put it in lockable cabinet as people figured there is no bluetooth code and played own music..
gym area, ocv`s are set to 15w, in the studio i believe are 15w too.
I was thinking in studio to lover speakers another maybe 30-40 cm.
studio amp: Adastra RM60B 5-Channel 100V Mixer/Amplifier with Bluetooth at Gear4music
gym amp: AVSL : Brands : Adastra : Product : Amplifiers : 100V Line : Full Size (19 inch) : 953.163UK
above you guys mentioned attenuator, how about something like this:
https://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/att-250-ws/attenuator-white-50w/dp/LS01613?st=100v attenuators
would I simply put attenuator in between amp and speaker?
cheers jo
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And perhaps now that your thread has been given a little nudge, radtech may comment on your choice of attenuator as he introduced their use as a possible solution.
For attenuators you have to use ones that are rated for at least the combined wattage of the speakers they are controlling.
For example, if you have one attenuator controlling 3 speakers each set to 15W, you would need one rated for at least 45W.
You might want to allow for later changing the speaker settings, say you changed one speaker to the 30W setting, now you would need at least a 60W attenuator. Plan ahead and get ones that will handle whatever situations may come up.
And yes, they just connect between the amp and speakers.
For example, if you have one attenuator controlling 3 speakers each set to 15W, you would need one rated for at least 45W.
You might want to allow for later changing the speaker settings, say you changed one speaker to the 30W setting, now you would need at least a 60W attenuator. Plan ahead and get ones that will handle whatever situations may come up.
And yes, they just connect between the amp and speakers.
He does have two separate amplifiers.
What do you mean by 'volume controls' and why are they not a good solution? Attenuator type 'volume controls' are used in distributed speaker systems all the time.
1. Systems with speaker attenuators always end up with the amp clipping and the speaker turned down to nothing. It's a human nature problem. The system could work but it will rarely be used properly.
2. Installers have been known to use potentiometers resulting in a quick burn out of the top section of the pot. The problem is that the top 5% of the pot can only handle 5% of the rated power. 100W potentiometers are large and expensive.
3. Stepped/switched attenuators are more expensive, and either use small transformers that short out the bass and saturate. The best switch power resistors but only work within a narrow range of impedance and limited power.
4. Sound quality is compromised because the attenuator destroys any buffering factor and transformers cause poor frequency response and distortion, and between the amp and speaker transformers, a net loss of half the amp power, ie 2x~1.5dB each.
5. Some amps will do bad things when loaded by a large transformer because the transformer is a short below ~10Hz.
2,3,4 can be mitigated by using very expensive products, but the money is better spent on local amps/systems.
Years ago I built a simple LDR circuit that limited the volume on a roller rink monitor speakers. You just rectify the amp output, attenuated as required and LED illuminate a shunt LDR on the amp input, c/w ~10k series resistor. The LDR time constant is a perfect fast attach and slow release. I'm sure something similar is available commercially? Or find an amp with a compressor-limiter built in. Again the problem is fingers. My LDR circuit was hanging on the back of the power amp, out of reach, and the action very subtle, no distortion, just nothing above ~100dBA, and no burning monitors.
I would try placing a variable resistor on the line output on the back of the unit to see if it can load the mixer section enough to reduce the volume. If that works a fixed resistor of the right value can be installed.
This unit does not seem to have a link coupling that would be the place to insert a hidden volume control or limiter.
This unit does not seem to have a link coupling that would be the place to insert a hidden volume control or limiter.
Hi Simon!
The Adastra mixer/amplifier has left and right channel RCA line output sockets.
Could you be more specific as to how to place the variable resistor?
(You are correct that, unfortunately, there is no external link between the preamp and power amp sections.)
hi, i can mitigate number one - i preset the volume on amp to my desired max and lock the cabinet; attenuator will be simply mounted outside of the cabinet?
however, if my total speakers wattage is 45w and attenuator wattage is 50w,
would i still have issues with burning out and sound distortion?
cheers
The issue of 'burning out' is confined to the use of potentiometers and switched resistors so avoid using that method of attenuation.
You havebeen recommended to use a transformer attenuator.
In post #11, radtech made it clear that you should choose one that is rated for at least the combined wattage of the speakers it is controlling.
yes, so the link below should be sufficient:
https://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/att-250-ws/attenuator-white-50w/dp/LS01613?st=100v attenuators
how about sound (base) distortion?
cheers
The attenuator that you linked to in post #7 is a transformer attenuator and will do the job provided you do not exceed its 50W rating.
https://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/att-250-ws/attenuator-white-50w/dp/LS01613?st=100v attenuators
I would not expect the attenuator to introduce significant audible distortion in your application.
https://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/att-250-ws/attenuator-white-50w/dp/LS01613?st=100v attenuators
I would not expect the attenuator to introduce significant audible distortion in your application.
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