Hoffman's Iron law is not nonsense...
If you're looking for efficiency, you skip the profound bass and viceversa.
If you're looking for efficiency, you skip the profound bass and viceversa.
Look, FR speakers are like precision crafted acoustic guitars. You find one you like and you hang onto it.
It turns out many people like the F15, simply because it knocks their old speakers off the stands - something that's happened for a few customers I'd say. As "illogical" by appearance, size or ridiculousness of measured parameters presented - as famous speaker builders just liking their Lowthers - despite knowing full well that the measured frequency response could be better. Something is happening there for them, that they just dont want to switch from Yamaha to Cordoba.
There's nothing wrong with "helping" a speaker that only goes down to 60 Hz, to go down through the next octave. In fact, you can relieve its cone motion even more by crossing higher than that. Why have 80Hz IMing anything up top, if it's just a simple DSP value entry in the programmer? Move the wings about the helper; make it an H frame.
It turns out many people like the F15, simply because it knocks their old speakers off the stands - something that's happened for a few customers I'd say. As "illogical" by appearance, size or ridiculousness of measured parameters presented - as famous speaker builders just liking their Lowthers - despite knowing full well that the measured frequency response could be better. Something is happening there for them, that they just dont want to switch from Yamaha to Cordoba.
There's nothing wrong with "helping" a speaker that only goes down to 60 Hz, to go down through the next octave. In fact, you can relieve its cone motion even more by crossing higher than that. Why have 80Hz IMing anything up top, if it's just a simple DSP value entry in the programmer? Move the wings about the helper; make it an H frame.
that's nice that you like , but with 15/18" you can use a smaller ones as the law fisic size matter on sound will be lot better for sure ...we cannot trash all the fundamental basis for loudspeaker design with just because a no name cinese stuff come out yesterday or by push of need bussines of dw.
Fullrange in openbaffle is a great thing for u never hear ones, in EU we have great years of story
At this point I would not underestimate Lii full ranges as "no name".
I would agree 100% to that, thats why I have ordered this F15 drivers after 2 years of reading all articles and forums on several sites and communites...
And btw, I am in EU...which doesnt matter at all, just to mention...
I will see how it competes with my JBL studio 530, but as I have seen on all these respectable channels, it should be on the whole other league...
And btw, I am in EU...which doesnt matter at all, just to mention...
I will see how it competes with my JBL studio 530, but as I have seen on all these respectable channels, it should be on the whole other league...
Do not, ever, under any circumstances, use youtube videos for judging sound quality!
Sound quality will inevitably vary wildly pending on a whole host of various reasons during recording or quite possibly in some cases editing, a youtube video is NOT REPRESENTATIVE of what you would experience in real life.
The 8" SB is very nice, I have bought a pair, but bigger fullrange drivers have their uses. I doubt you have experienced any 15" FR drivers, or you would be able to logically explain your argument. The words you choose and the way you present them, sadly, makes it seem somewhat similar to a ostentacious child caught red handed, that is trying get out of trouble by shouting opinionated nonsense really high to increase credibility.
The Manzanita is a good design, not disputing that, I am protesting the highly opinionated phrasing and the huge font.
@leooki @nicoch58 using several cases worth of periods in a single post reduces your seriousness, makes people think you do not care or have no idea what you are writing about.
Using it very rarely, and then only once, however...
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please tell me at what frequency start beaming a 15" .....?? If you like a compromise that's fine hope you understand it
I think that for 800$ we can build a lot better speakers...
yep Pa ,but my thinking is relate that supravox fertin siare maybe philips and so with 60year or story never think a 15" FRAt this point I would not underestimate Lii full ranges as "no name".
btw you are really a good big boyz
Just as an example, I found that the Fane 12-250TC had slightly more beaming than the Fane 15-300TC.
I agree that small drivers, in general, have less beaming at higher frequencies than larger drivers, but at the same time I have heard some 6.5" that had quite severe beaming. It seems to me like larger drivers are able to acommodate wizzer cones in a better way than smaller drivers.
Small drivers with wizzer cones = quite often horrible.
Larger drivers with wizzer cones = not too bad.
Drivers cannot be much larger than 5" IMO before you need a wizzer, and a lot of the 6-8" drivers are not very good even with wizzers, except for the two 8" from Seas and SB which are more like "the exceptions that confirm the rule".
There is not a single loudspeaker, amplifier, car, bicycle +++ in this world made without any compromises, I hope you can understand that.
I think that certain incidences in the recent years have made the world a lot more expensive than it was in for instance 2018.
800$ in 2023 will not get you very far, you can probably make something better for that sum, but it may not be such a vast difference as you imagine it to be.
15" FR drivers are a different set of compromises to what you seem to prefer, nothing wrong with that, it is personal preference.
Personally I think the best "FR" is a three way using some well implemented coaxial together with a helper woofer, but that is basically a 3-way, and requires a different set of compromises like measurement microphones to make properly optimalized crossovers, possibly some active filters and an extra set of power amplifiers to make it juuuuuust right.
However, 15" single FR drivers like the Fane or the Lii are very interesting and fun to play with, they bring a completely different set of compromises to the table, and they enable people to experience really loud, true FULL RANGE sound from a single driver from 30hz to over 10kHz, absolutely incredible. Try getting the same results from a single 3", 30Hz even at low volume is simply not possible with a 3" and extremely hard with a 5" for not much SPL.
you can dream 30hz in OB .....hopes that you cannot thinks that f15 data are real ,really a joke ...60hz is more realistic you can have only good 100-400hz for that size losing all the way up vs an 8".....
btw in EU with 25% importax will be min 1000€, with that I can build really great louspeaker to taste ,good 15" are 100-150€ ,, good 8" fullrange start 50€ the SB to 350€ seas supravox tangbang scanspeak fostex ...smaller FR a lot lower , with that price I can build a top scanspeak two ways or good tree ways but this is another story
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Unless you want bass extension to 80hz; meaning no bass, I would add the sub... Regarding the baffle, NEVER EVER use a u frame or 'wings' on a full range open baffle driver. The U frame will have a have pipe resonance formed between the wings which will sound horrible and thus needs to avoided by either filtering the driver out before it happens or not doing it at all. As you cannot filter it out before it happens as you need the highs and mids you cannot avoid it thus shouldn't use it. It also will result in rear diffraction from the backwave hitting the wings and will make the sound even less "open baffle", not that it matters as the setup as presented here won't be much open baffle around 400hz anyways due to the gigantic woofer and baffle making the speaker only forward radiating for most of the operating range. Thus the best shape is the smallest baffle one can get away with, something which is contradicting for more bass extension. Thus one should find a balance between wide and not wide enough. This is also the reason why one uses multiple drivers....
Have you seen the graph of this speaker on page 1? I don't know what your definition of full range is but having a -6db bass extension of 80hz and and highs extension to roughly 2-3khz isn't what I find fullrange at all. My own system has -6db bass levels at 21hz and extends without 15db drops to 20khz and I still have music where I cannot hear all the content i.e. Bass I love You with 14hz bass tones. I have heard plenty full range drivers/systems even in open baffle configuration (Voxative, Tangband, Ead (Etalon) and Seas to name a few) and never have I found it sounding anything close to full range, all of them lacked highs, the bigger the cone the worse and many also had no real bass i.e. Pap ob speakers. It is beyond me why people discuss high and low about this when it clearly isn't true at all and easily explained with science. It thus must also come to no surprise that many of the people advocating for this kind of speaker are (or close to) 60 years old and thus having absolutely no way of even hearing the missing highs on this speaker due to the amount of (age related) hearing loss (see the book of Floyd Toole; Sound Reproduction which shows a graph showing 40db of hearing loss above 3khz for the average 50+ year old), this to me is the only logical explanation as there is no way anyone with good hearing doesn't hear a 15db drop in high frequencies....
Ni
Ridiculing people that are not life devotees to one particular design seems very silly to me, with a bit of membrane area and relatively simple designs the numbers I mentioned are possible, though not at earth shattering levels.
I did run my pair of Fane 13-300TC in OB for several weeks, with a lot of EQ to soften up the very stiff suspension. They were able to make 30Hz and keep smiling all day long at moderate levels, can really take some punishment for a FR.
I realize that this thread is about OB alternatives, however, please keep in mind that some of the members of this forum are able to think in more than two dimensions. 2D platform games can be a lot of fun, but real life is in 3D.
Ridiculing people that are not life devotees to one particular design seems very silly to me, with a bit of membrane area and relatively simple designs the numbers I mentioned are possible, though not at earth shattering levels.
I did run my pair of Fane 13-300TC in OB for several weeks, with a lot of EQ to soften up the very stiff suspension. They were able to make 30Hz and keep smiling all day long at moderate levels, can really take some punishment for a FR.
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hey boyz stop insulting ! ,first the post where relate to f15 with is 13g of mms ,...
Second where do you go with your 48hz without EQ in OB?? at what db at what distortions just be serius with just 53g
I am only giving you a slightly more politely phrased response than the one you gave me, if you feel offended then perhaps read your own posts and see if you should change anything before before posting next time.
This does not make any sense, where did I write anything about 48Hz?
And who is doing OB bass without EQ? Not me.
My opinion is that OB can be fun, but bass is best done with boxes, 3 dimensions, not 2.
48hz is the fs of your fane...... EQ is made your post a non sense
we never speak about EQ ,I do without as I use fine class A amp and turntable
H/U can but isn't good for the rest of range
we never speak about EQ ,I do without as I use fine class A amp and turntable
H/U can but isn't good for the rest of range
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How can my post suddenly become nonsense when I clearly stated the use of EQ in the first place?
Well, if we are already nitpicking here, it depends a bit on the output impedance of your beloved amplifier whether you use a form of EQ or not. Some amplifiers increase the Q of the system response at FS, a sort of automatic EQ if you will.
I do have some setups using only passive filters and no DSP, but in those cases I have made some adjustments such as for instance padding down the top end a little bit, this is also a form of EQ.
Don't be a purist, idealism never works out in the real world.
Well, if we are already nitpicking here, it depends a bit on the output impedance of your beloved amplifier whether you use a form of EQ or not. Some amplifiers increase the Q of the system response at FS, a sort of automatic EQ if you will.
I do have some setups using only passive filters and no DSP, but in those cases I have made some adjustments such as for instance padding down the top end a little bit, this is also a form of EQ.
Don't be a purist, idealism never works out in the real world.
I'm building speaker from 1985 , in Ob 14year ago ,10year in diy amp class d tube and SS, diy phono and dac
I use the best I can buy , the speakers I sell from 1990 still work fine as new
Ps and yep SE tube con rise the Qts of 30% by Qes
Good for you.
I am a bit younger than you and did not begin with DIY loudspeakers until 2008. Put together my first amplifier from scratch in 2001. Tubes, solid state, PWM/class D etc.
I prefer cost efficient performance, no rainbow chasing for the ultimate/best of the best.
I am a bit younger than you and did not begin with DIY loudspeakers until 2008. Put together my first amplifier from scratch in 2001. Tubes, solid state, PWM/class D etc.
I prefer cost efficient performance, no rainbow chasing for the ultimate/best of the best.
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You know what matters more than a sh*tload of theories, measurments/data, and over-confident opinions?... real life results of the sound that actually reaches your ears.
People can hear for themselves and decide for themselves what the Lii 15" FR drivers sound like and if they like it or think it "works" or not...