Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge. So, to resume, I have a plan to build a OB with Eminence ALpha 15 and FR per each side, sketch in attachment.
Dimensions would be aprox 60-70 x 110-120cm...38mm mdf or similar material, U frame according to law of phisics sescribed in linkwitzlab formulas...
FR driver is my main concern, I am same as you reading all this information all over the net, and really dont know now what to thrust any more...before year or so I was lean more to tang band, mark audio and similar 6-8" drivers...than seeing all this new directions was thinking to do it with Lii 15 without woofer...nao I am back to this solution with bas driver, and would like to do it with this Fane 12-250 or some smaller TB/Omnes Audio/Mark Audio.. or even considering something like Ciare CH250, Visaton B200...also price is a factor, all more than 500 EUR for drivers is not acceptable for me..so this Eminence / Fane is all right regarding the cost...what do you think about all this...not to forget, ampifier is Yamaha stereo network receiver RN 602, good DUAL turntable, TIDAL Master...later maybe will add small valve amplifier, like Elekit TU-8100 or some Nobe sound kit to do....what do you think best full range for me would be?
Dimensions would be aprox 60-70 x 110-120cm...38mm mdf or similar material, U frame according to law of phisics sescribed in linkwitzlab formulas...
FR driver is my main concern, I am same as you reading all this information all over the net, and really dont know now what to thrust any more...before year or so I was lean more to tang band, mark audio and similar 6-8" drivers...than seeing all this new directions was thinking to do it with Lii 15 without woofer...nao I am back to this solution with bas driver, and would like to do it with this Fane 12-250 or some smaller TB/Omnes Audio/Mark Audio.. or even considering something like Ciare CH250, Visaton B200...also price is a factor, all more than 500 EUR for drivers is not acceptable for me..so this Eminence / Fane is all right regarding the cost...what do you think about all this...not to forget, ampifier is Yamaha stereo network receiver RN 602, good DUAL turntable, TIDAL Master...later maybe will add small valve amplifier, like Elekit TU-8100 or some Nobe sound kit to do....what do you think best full range for me would be?
Attachments
- Hi Leooki , I hope you haven't have made up your mind completely yet , I still would like to really encourage you to try either the F15 or the Silver 10 Lii Audio drivers. My reasons are this ...
1- First reason why I think you should still be interested to try a F15 driver is -- Read back over your thread and make note of " who " is telling you that the F15 driver is not going to work . . . . .
- Question - Have they ever heard one???
- No they probably they haven't , and even if they did - (which is most likely not the case) -- just because they might not like it doesn't mean many other people aren't going to like it.
- Unfortunately like many people on forums they just know they are "right". . . . . But How can they " know " if they have Never Heard one - They Absolutely can Not know. We have come a long way but we don't know everything yet when it comes to science , sound , the human ear, or the human brain. And you can't look at a speakers measurements and say it isn't going to sound good.
- How do I know that - because two speakers can basically measure the same but when you listen to them they can sound totally different!
- The same thing goes for Amplifiers , two different amplifiers can measure basically the same and yet when you listen to them they can sound very different ..... we are getting closer all the time , and learning more everyday but we honestly don't yet know everything to measure for , or exactly how to interpret those measurement in regards to how we process sound, yet.
- ( I should say that in defense of measurements they can tell you a lot good things about that piece of equipment , and if you ask someone who designs speakers for a living, they would be the first to say that measurements matter - but without hearing the speaker they will can not know exactly how it will sound, and without hearing a speaker they will never be able to perfect it or voice it to sound like they think it should. ) -
-- ( If your not sure about all this find an equipment designer like Nelson Pass who would be happy to talk to you, or John Devore a top speaker designer , or Andrew Jones another top speaker designer , and ask them if this is true. Or ask any experienced Online Reviewer the same questions, they all will say that to know exactly what a design is going to sound like they would have to hear it. They will say Measurements can tell you a lot of important information but aren't enough by themselves. . . )
2 - The second reason: Listening to Audiophiles who have the most experience is just common sense, and the guy over at Glow in the Dark Audio has tried Many , many , of the full range drivers out there , if you go read through all the different drivers he has tried there are at least 30 different full range drivers he has tried and his long time reference or favorite were a pair of vintage Zenith 49cz852 Speaker drivers , but when he heard the Lii Audio drivers he said after a using the Zenith 49cz852 he was ready for a break and said the F15 drivers are his new favorite speaker drivers!! - Also look at his amplifier pages and you can see how many different amplifiers he has tried... he has tried a lot of different pieces of audio gear and has a lot more experience than many diy audio guys do. So I would place my confidence of those who have actually heard the F15 Speaker Driver, like audiophiles who own the speaker, and especially people who have a lot of experience with audio equipment, like Audio Equipment manufacturers that you can trust, and online Audio Equipment Reviewers that you know and feel you can trust.
- If you are unsure I would go back and read what this diy audio enthusiast has to say about all of the drivers he has tried over the years, he has gone to a lot of trouble to try and help those who are interested in full range drivers.
-- http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/speakers.html
- And if you google the F15 speakers in an Open Baffle, or Lii Audio speakers in an Open Baffle you will find many, many guys who have actually tried the F15 drivers in Open Baffles , and 99% of them love the speaker!!!
- Also the same can be said about Steve the owner and equipment designer at Decware Audio , he started out designing Speakers and Amplifiers 25 years ago and has built some really great speakers over the years , and he has heard many , many , different speaker designs probably more than most folks here who don't make a living in Audio. And he could choose any drivers or speaker designs for his company to sell , but he is astonished at how good Lii Audio speaker drivers sound , so much so that he says he wouldn't be without several of their drivers in his main listening room , and that he uses the Silver 10 , and F15 Drivers to know exactly how a piece of new audio equipment sounds.
-- Recently Steve the was asked some questions about the new prototype Open Baffle speaker that was using the Lii Audio drivers, first when it would be available , then went on to say some great things about the drivers.
- " Indeed, I know I wouldn't be in a position to build another pair from hardwood like this because of time, so it would be up to Bob Ziegler and I wouldn't feel right about asking him until October when he is here to hear them first hand. - ( Bob Ziegler does the wood work for most of Decware's speaker designs )
This speaker is as far as I can tell probably going to have to be shipped freight. Because of that alone, if we offered it, I wouldn't have a 30 day trial. Doubtful that would ever really be a sticking point since the way they work in a room and the way they sound will ensure success in every case, just as Randy's smaller ones do.
Perhaps Randy will be temped after he receives his drivers and brakes them in to hear them in the big baffles and make a pair out of plywood... you never know.
I have gotten a good vibe from Lii Audio, and find them eager to please. Their other products look enticing as well. You know me, always for the little guy, and clearly that is the case here. These drivers aren't made in giant Eurpa factory in China but by small business like Decware. I have communicated with the owner and designer of the driver Mr. Lii and we look forward to see what things can happen next. ; )
As far as the Big Betsy Baffles with the F15 drivers go, it's my opinion they are too good not to build and sell. On more than one level they spank all of our speakers... the ZOB, the DNA2, the HR-1, the Corner Horns, to a degree that they simply have to be built. My concern isn't about so much offering this exact pair or other hardwoods for 6 or 7 grand, but finding out if the sound can be duplicated in MDF or plywood. Because if it can, that's going to be a speaker everyone who is serious can easily afford to buy or build once they hear it.
I'm a little scared what I will hear in a side-by-side comparison, because there is a energy and speed associated with this hardwood pair I built that I honestly wonder if it can be duplicated in other woods, and how sensitive that's going to be.
However, doing the math, since the speaker is basically twice as good as everything else we've offered on it's own without augmentation, that means that if a MDF or Plywood baffle sounds only 70% as good, it would still be 30% better than everything we've offered... the thing is, it is possible that either material could for some Godforsaken reason sound better than this hardwood. It could be 30% better yielding a final result of 130% improvement. Also with laminated MDF or plywood is the opportunity to make co-mass-layer-damped panels by sandwiching asphalt paper, Dynamat, linoleum, etc., between the layers. Of course if it did sound better I would prefer to not know about it since I love my pair and ignorance is bliss in this hobby.
So you may be shocked to hear me say that on more than one level they spank all of our other speakers. (not every level, but 2 out of 3 sort of thing) Two reasons for this. 1) They have more bass than highs, not the other way around, so they always sound good. 2) In these baffles they are at least 100dB or higher and everything else we make is 96/94dB or less. You wouldn't think 4, 5, or 6 dB or maybe 7dB would make that much difference but it is a complete game changer. You no longer have a 2 watt amp, you now have a 40 watt amp with incredible slam. This excites me because we all know the ZMA 40 watt is 6 grand and you can get a 2 watt Zen Triode for 1 grand. Just to be crystal clear about this, these speakers on a 2 watt Zen Triode amp hit as hard as a 40 watt Zen Mystery Amp on our fabulous 94dB DNA2 loudspeakers! It seems impossible but it's true."
Steve
---------
-- Below is the thread where Steve builds the first Prototype of the F15 Open Baffles , then everyone goes on to ask many questions about the drivers .... and talking about what those who then bought the driver have to say about it , and there are 32 pages of more information about LII Audio Speaker drivers. - Please make sure you at least read pages One and Two -- to find out more about the speaker.
- https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1561942815
- Also more information can be found here on the Decware Product page about the F15 Driver and there are some great Videos made of the Speakers too.
- https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMS.html
-------
-- And here is a short thread about with some other questions about peoples opinions on which driver they liked best and and their set ups:
- https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649332261/9#9
-
- I know that at times Steve is using one of his ZROCK units on some of the Lii Audio Open Baffle speakers , the ZROCK is a Bass Restoration tube EQ unit - sells for 895.00 ... But some folks are adding a extra woofer like the W15 or a pair of woofers in place of the ZROCK unit.... I'm looking at the Eminence Alpha 15a , or maybe AE Speaker drivers
------------
- In my research on the Lii Audio speaker drivers I have been focusing on the Crystal 10 - ( now the improved version, The Silver 10 ) - And also on the F15 Speaker Driver , and from all the Forums and Reviews I've read some prefer the Crystal10 with a bass driver, and some who prefer the F15 Driver. ---- And on the F15 driver some people say is Great by itself , and there are some who say they prefer more Bass and add a Bass Driver to the F15. But Almost Everyone has nothing but GREAT things to say about the speakers - !!!! ........ I have only run across one or two people maybe who decided the drivers weren't for them and went back to Multiway speakers, most people love it!! - Some going so far as to say they are done looking for the Best Speaker sound - they have found what they have always been looking for.
- one last thing when I found someone who had bought both drivers - the Crystal 10 and the F15 and asked him which he liked best and why, first he said he felt that the F15 Driver was more musical and easier to dial in than the Crystal 10 driver........ but that when you add a woofer to the Crystal and did the work to get it dialed in , after words the combo maybe had more detail and was more of an audiophile speaker than the F15, .... but that both drivers were great! -- funny thing he said when he got the Crystal 10 drivers he let a buddy borrow the F15 speakers who thought they sounded amazing..... and he hasn't heard from him since - lol
Best regards , Dean
--------------
PS.
- On a side note:
- There used to be a stereo magazine back in the 70s or 80s that was real popular for a few years , ( I think it was Stereo Review ) and the reviewer would measure a speaker and if it measured well he would write that it was a great sounding speaker..... that magazine went out of business because people realized measurement couldn't tell everything, some of those well measuring speakers did not sound as good as other speakers did. And if we only used measurements to design speakers they would all sound the same .... and interestingly it seems like speakers sound more different from each other than say amplifiers sound to each other or preamps to each other......
A second side note:
1- First reason why I think you should still be interested to try a F15 driver is -- Read back over your thread and make note of " who " is telling you that the F15 driver is not going to work . . . . .
- Question - Have they ever heard one???
- No they probably they haven't , and even if they did - (which is most likely not the case) -- just because they might not like it doesn't mean many other people aren't going to like it.
- Unfortunately like many people on forums they just know they are "right". . . . . But How can they " know " if they have Never Heard one - They Absolutely can Not know. We have come a long way but we don't know everything yet when it comes to science , sound , the human ear, or the human brain. And you can't look at a speakers measurements and say it isn't going to sound good.
- How do I know that - because two speakers can basically measure the same but when you listen to them they can sound totally different!
- The same thing goes for Amplifiers , two different amplifiers can measure basically the same and yet when you listen to them they can sound very different ..... we are getting closer all the time , and learning more everyday but we honestly don't yet know everything to measure for , or exactly how to interpret those measurement in regards to how we process sound, yet.
- ( I should say that in defense of measurements they can tell you a lot good things about that piece of equipment , and if you ask someone who designs speakers for a living, they would be the first to say that measurements matter - but without hearing the speaker they will can not know exactly how it will sound, and without hearing a speaker they will never be able to perfect it or voice it to sound like they think it should. ) -
-- ( If your not sure about all this find an equipment designer like Nelson Pass who would be happy to talk to you, or John Devore a top speaker designer , or Andrew Jones another top speaker designer , and ask them if this is true. Or ask any experienced Online Reviewer the same questions, they all will say that to know exactly what a design is going to sound like they would have to hear it. They will say Measurements can tell you a lot of important information but aren't enough by themselves. . . )
2 - The second reason: Listening to Audiophiles who have the most experience is just common sense, and the guy over at Glow in the Dark Audio has tried Many , many , of the full range drivers out there , if you go read through all the different drivers he has tried there are at least 30 different full range drivers he has tried and his long time reference or favorite were a pair of vintage Zenith 49cz852 Speaker drivers , but when he heard the Lii Audio drivers he said after a using the Zenith 49cz852 he was ready for a break and said the F15 drivers are his new favorite speaker drivers!! - Also look at his amplifier pages and you can see how many different amplifiers he has tried... he has tried a lot of different pieces of audio gear and has a lot more experience than many diy audio guys do. So I would place my confidence of those who have actually heard the F15 Speaker Driver, like audiophiles who own the speaker, and especially people who have a lot of experience with audio equipment, like Audio Equipment manufacturers that you can trust, and online Audio Equipment Reviewers that you know and feel you can trust.
- If you are unsure I would go back and read what this diy audio enthusiast has to say about all of the drivers he has tried over the years, he has gone to a lot of trouble to try and help those who are interested in full range drivers.
-- http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/speakers.html
- And if you google the F15 speakers in an Open Baffle, or Lii Audio speakers in an Open Baffle you will find many, many guys who have actually tried the F15 drivers in Open Baffles , and 99% of them love the speaker!!!
- Also the same can be said about Steve the owner and equipment designer at Decware Audio , he started out designing Speakers and Amplifiers 25 years ago and has built some really great speakers over the years , and he has heard many , many , different speaker designs probably more than most folks here who don't make a living in Audio. And he could choose any drivers or speaker designs for his company to sell , but he is astonished at how good Lii Audio speaker drivers sound , so much so that he says he wouldn't be without several of their drivers in his main listening room , and that he uses the Silver 10 , and F15 Drivers to know exactly how a piece of new audio equipment sounds.
-- Recently Steve the was asked some questions about the new prototype Open Baffle speaker that was using the Lii Audio drivers, first when it would be available , then went on to say some great things about the drivers.
- " Indeed, I know I wouldn't be in a position to build another pair from hardwood like this because of time, so it would be up to Bob Ziegler and I wouldn't feel right about asking him until October when he is here to hear them first hand. - ( Bob Ziegler does the wood work for most of Decware's speaker designs )
This speaker is as far as I can tell probably going to have to be shipped freight. Because of that alone, if we offered it, I wouldn't have a 30 day trial. Doubtful that would ever really be a sticking point since the way they work in a room and the way they sound will ensure success in every case, just as Randy's smaller ones do.
Perhaps Randy will be temped after he receives his drivers and brakes them in to hear them in the big baffles and make a pair out of plywood... you never know.
I have gotten a good vibe from Lii Audio, and find them eager to please. Their other products look enticing as well. You know me, always for the little guy, and clearly that is the case here. These drivers aren't made in giant Eurpa factory in China but by small business like Decware. I have communicated with the owner and designer of the driver Mr. Lii and we look forward to see what things can happen next. ; )
As far as the Big Betsy Baffles with the F15 drivers go, it's my opinion they are too good not to build and sell. On more than one level they spank all of our speakers... the ZOB, the DNA2, the HR-1, the Corner Horns, to a degree that they simply have to be built. My concern isn't about so much offering this exact pair or other hardwoods for 6 or 7 grand, but finding out if the sound can be duplicated in MDF or plywood. Because if it can, that's going to be a speaker everyone who is serious can easily afford to buy or build once they hear it.
I'm a little scared what I will hear in a side-by-side comparison, because there is a energy and speed associated with this hardwood pair I built that I honestly wonder if it can be duplicated in other woods, and how sensitive that's going to be.
However, doing the math, since the speaker is basically twice as good as everything else we've offered on it's own without augmentation, that means that if a MDF or Plywood baffle sounds only 70% as good, it would still be 30% better than everything we've offered... the thing is, it is possible that either material could for some Godforsaken reason sound better than this hardwood. It could be 30% better yielding a final result of 130% improvement. Also with laminated MDF or plywood is the opportunity to make co-mass-layer-damped panels by sandwiching asphalt paper, Dynamat, linoleum, etc., between the layers. Of course if it did sound better I would prefer to not know about it since I love my pair and ignorance is bliss in this hobby.
So you may be shocked to hear me say that on more than one level they spank all of our other speakers. (not every level, but 2 out of 3 sort of thing) Two reasons for this. 1) They have more bass than highs, not the other way around, so they always sound good. 2) In these baffles they are at least 100dB or higher and everything else we make is 96/94dB or less. You wouldn't think 4, 5, or 6 dB or maybe 7dB would make that much difference but it is a complete game changer. You no longer have a 2 watt amp, you now have a 40 watt amp with incredible slam. This excites me because we all know the ZMA 40 watt is 6 grand and you can get a 2 watt Zen Triode for 1 grand. Just to be crystal clear about this, these speakers on a 2 watt Zen Triode amp hit as hard as a 40 watt Zen Mystery Amp on our fabulous 94dB DNA2 loudspeakers! It seems impossible but it's true."
Steve
---------
-- Below is the thread where Steve builds the first Prototype of the F15 Open Baffles , then everyone goes on to ask many questions about the drivers .... and talking about what those who then bought the driver have to say about it , and there are 32 pages of more information about LII Audio Speaker drivers. - Please make sure you at least read pages One and Two -- to find out more about the speaker.
- https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1561942815
- Also more information can be found here on the Decware Product page about the F15 Driver and there are some great Videos made of the Speakers too.
- https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZMS.html
-------
-- And here is a short thread about with some other questions about peoples opinions on which driver they liked best and and their set ups:
- https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1649332261/9#9
-
- I know that at times Steve is using one of his ZROCK units on some of the Lii Audio Open Baffle speakers , the ZROCK is a Bass Restoration tube EQ unit - sells for 895.00 ... But some folks are adding a extra woofer like the W15 or a pair of woofers in place of the ZROCK unit.... I'm looking at the Eminence Alpha 15a , or maybe AE Speaker drivers
------------
- In my research on the Lii Audio speaker drivers I have been focusing on the Crystal 10 - ( now the improved version, The Silver 10 ) - And also on the F15 Speaker Driver , and from all the Forums and Reviews I've read some prefer the Crystal10 with a bass driver, and some who prefer the F15 Driver. ---- And on the F15 driver some people say is Great by itself , and there are some who say they prefer more Bass and add a Bass Driver to the F15. But Almost Everyone has nothing but GREAT things to say about the speakers - !!!! ........ I have only run across one or two people maybe who decided the drivers weren't for them and went back to Multiway speakers, most people love it!! - Some going so far as to say they are done looking for the Best Speaker sound - they have found what they have always been looking for.
- one last thing when I found someone who had bought both drivers - the Crystal 10 and the F15 and asked him which he liked best and why, first he said he felt that the F15 Driver was more musical and easier to dial in than the Crystal 10 driver........ but that when you add a woofer to the Crystal and did the work to get it dialed in , after words the combo maybe had more detail and was more of an audiophile speaker than the F15, .... but that both drivers were great! -- funny thing he said when he got the Crystal 10 drivers he let a buddy borrow the F15 speakers who thought they sounded amazing..... and he hasn't heard from him since - lol
Best regards , Dean
--------------
PS.
- On a side note:
- There used to be a stereo magazine back in the 70s or 80s that was real popular for a few years , ( I think it was Stereo Review ) and the reviewer would measure a speaker and if it measured well he would write that it was a great sounding speaker..... that magazine went out of business because people realized measurement couldn't tell everything, some of those well measuring speakers did not sound as good as other speakers did. And if we only used measurements to design speakers they would all sound the same .... and interestingly it seems like speakers sound more different from each other than say amplifiers sound to each other or preamps to each other......
A second side note:
- A few years back there was a big argument raging about CD Players and also Computers that played audio files. , Some people - the said that cd players , and computer play back systems could sound very different from each other and wondered why? ... But the other side said it was all in there head because all there was on a CD or in an Audio File in a Computer were ones and zeros , and so they had to be wrong they has to sound the same. --- But the scientific community has since shown that we didn't know some things about how humans hear , and how the brain interprets sound.
- We didn't know just how sensitive the human ear and brain are to timing errors. - Science has since found that the ear/brain can hear timing errors to a either ten thousands of a second or a millionth of a second - ( I am going to have to look that up again ) - And just in 2019 scientist found that the human ear, like those of other mammals, is so extraordinarily sensitive that it can detect sound-wave-induced vibrations of the eardrum that move by less than the width of an atom!!!! - - So it wasn't the ones and zeros that were the problem - it was the Extremely small timing errors that were happening in the CD Players and in the Computer Playback systems . . . and many people could hear those timing errors in the CD playback mechanisms or in the Computer Playback systems. We have also since discovered what Jitter is and how it can impact the sound of digital playback , but 20 years or so ago we just didn't know those things... and we have since learned of other areas that can affect digital playback too.
I am new to this whole full range/open baffle thing, but since I have applied some EQ to my F18/sub combo I am extremely reluctant to re-connect any other speaker that happens to be in the house........go figure....🤔.
I really like my F15s, but I'll gush on them a bit less. I'm into soundstage focus and they do that really well. To the point where, for me, the "laser precision" of the phantom images of instruments they can create - it's like well, if they can do that, they're entitled to have a few FR abberations here / there. Unequalized, I think in time my brain can iron those out, but it cant put humpty-soundstage back together again when fractured or splintered by playback through lesser speaker designs. I dont know how they do it.
If I were to summize my F15 experience, I'd say I feel for the first time in all of my enthusiast life I have speakers better than anything I'll ever own to put in front of them as amplification and source. So now, within my limited sphere, I can fiddle with that part to see what I can do more / better. Also, FWIW I'm pretty happy with the Zoudio amp driving them; two-way with 18" helpers on the same baffle.
If I were to summize my F15 experience, I'd say I feel for the first time in all of my enthusiast life I have speakers better than anything I'll ever own to put in front of them as amplification and source. So now, within my limited sphere, I can fiddle with that part to see what I can do more / better. Also, FWIW I'm pretty happy with the Zoudio amp driving them; two-way with 18" helpers on the same baffle.
Well, it mostly depends on how loud you want to get and which comprises you are willing to make. I think a large FR is really fun, but it's not a magical solution either, and comes at a cost.
If you can live with limited off-axis dispersion and your listening space might even improve with this because of reduced reflections, then it's an excellent opportunity to experience what big drivers can do.
And if you want the Fane's I personally think the 15" is better.
Must see - Here is guy who has recently owned very expensive Verity Audio Speakers , Tekton 210 Perfect SET Speakers , and Lii Audio F15 Speakers in custom baffles . . . .
-
-
Hi dubai2000 and jjasniew , can you guys give a little more information on your equipment and your F18 and F15 setups?
Do you have any pictures or can you take a couple to show your speakers too???
I am going to get a LII Audio driver, but I'm still on the fence about which one... 🙂
Thanks, Dean
Do you have any pictures or can you take a couple to show your speakers too???
I am going to get a LII Audio driver, but I'm still on the fence about which one... 🙂
Thanks, Dean
Thank you very, very much hallcon83 for such an inspiring text...and yes, I have already been read all these impressions on different sites and looked at all these youtube videos regarding the LIi Audio F15 and other Lii drivers...that were some of the actions I did in the last year or so... convincing to summerize it all...
Further, thank you KaffiMan again, really appreciate all your explanations....To make this discussion even more interesting, what do you think will be better for rock, funk, jazz, and modern music like RnB, soul, and similar on my Yamaha RN-602...F15 alone per side or Fast8 with Eminence Alpha 15 per side (or Silver 6 instead of Fast 8)...or maybe you have other thoughts for drivers on OB within approx 500 EUR.
Further, thank you KaffiMan again, really appreciate all your explanations....To make this discussion even more interesting, what do you think will be better for rock, funk, jazz, and modern music like RnB, soul, and similar on my Yamaha RN-602...F15 alone per side or Fast8 with Eminence Alpha 15 per side (or Silver 6 instead of Fast 8)...or maybe you have other thoughts for drivers on OB within approx 500 EUR.
Mine look like this. The right hand is mirror. I had an older thread here in FR, but a search for "F15" doesnt reveal it. I use a Zoudio amp, with a USB to I2S converter connecting to it from a PC - or its BT input when convenient. The Zoudio has 4, ~25W channels and I cross ~100Hz to the 18" on the bottom, using its integrated DSP.
The Zoudio amp with USB to I2S implements what I consider a full digital signal path, with only the speaker wires carrying analog signaling. I rarely push the system, so 25W per is fine for my listening these days...who needs SPL when you have all that marvelous soundstage space to gaze into? The 18s, with their EQ would clip first...
The Zoudio amp with USB to I2S implements what I consider a full digital signal path, with only the speaker wires carrying analog signaling. I rarely push the system, so 25W per is fine for my listening these days...who needs SPL when you have all that marvelous soundstage space to gaze into? The 18s, with their EQ would clip first...
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Thanks jjasniew , interesting set up I'm not familiar with the Zoudio amplifiers and DSP , I'll have to go check them out.
---------------
- Hi leooki , well I think it really comes down to what kinds of music you listen to??
- And what if you have idea of your musical priorities that can help greatly with your decision too.......
--- The reason that your musical preferences can make your choices easier is that some Full Range Drivers may be sound their best with different kinds of music , for example ...
- The Silver 10 Driver is a very detail orientated speaker driver and can be much more revealing than some speaker other drivers , I know that Steve at Decware has said he now considers the Silver 10 speaker to be an essential and a invaluable tool for assessing any newly designed pieces of audio equipment and wouldn't won't to be without it now........... but at the same time he says he also really likes how the F15 Speakers sound too, so he is keeping both in his main listening room.
- - - - - -
This is may be getting into the deep end but ,
- the Silver 10 may also be more demanding of how well the music is recorded - maybe even showing more flaws in the recording process.... , and also maybe revealing how good of an Amplifier you are using with it too , but how well someone can adjust to that is hard to say without them having heard the speaker....
- so the Preamplifier and Amplifier you choose May be more important on the silver 10 than the F15 speaker driver, one guy described his Silver 10 as being harder to dial in , he said he had to work a little harder to get the Silver 10 along with the Bass driver to sound exactly how he wanted them to , but he after he did get them -- " dialed in " -- he liked the Silver 10 a little better than the F15 he had tried first.
- On the other hand the F15 Speaker Driver while still having great detail has been described as being more Musical of the two drivers by people who have had both drivers in their systems.... The F15 can still be a very revealing speaker but seems to be easier to dial in , not as critical as to which Amplifier and Preamplifier are being used with it..... but still some amps and preamps will still sound better on it than others because it is still a Very good quality driver and the better the equipment is the better the F15 will sound too.
I hope this helps a little with trying to decide which way to go....
- The other thing to consider is that at - $ 399.00 - the F15 driver is really not a very expensive pair of drivers for just how good they are! , And if you decide you want to try the Silver 10 with a Bass driver down the road , and you end up liking them more , you can probably sell the F15 for around - $199 or more , so you wont be out very much money for having tried it - 🙂
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Not to confuse things too much but here is what I am leaning toward -
MUSIC
- -- As an Example I like a lot of different kinds of Music - most every thing but Rap , and although I like Classical it's not my favorite so not too often , and sometimes I'm also the mood for Jazz , but The music I listen to most is - Contempory Christian Music .... and Female vocals like -- Alison Krause , Jheena Lodwick , Emilie-Claire Barlow, Margo Timmi - (Cowboy Junkies) , Mary black , Loreena Mckennitt , Petra Magoni - (Musical Nuda) - and then I like many Male Vocalists , like the male vocal group - Home Free , or singers like -- Mel Torme , Chris Isaak... and 70's singers like - Boz Scaggs , Dan Hill , Billy Joel , James Taylor , Paul Davis - etc ...
- Then I also like lot of other kinds of Music like -- NILS LOFGREN - (Acoustic Live) , Justin Johnson - (Turquoise Trail) , fink - (Perfect Darkness) , Michael Franks - ( Sleeping Gypsy) , Joe Bonamassa , DIRE STRAITS - (Love Over Gold- etc) , Gary Moore - ( Still Got The Blues) , Stevie Ray Vaughan - (Double Trouble) ... etc.
- But Then also sometimes I get in a mood to put on - PINK FLOYD , BOSTON , EAGLES , FLEETWOOD MAC , SUPERTRAMP , STYX , TOTO , SANTANA , or even ENIGMA , and DEAD CAN DANCE ....
--- So all this is to say that on one hand I like fairly simple Acoustic music - but for me I also need to be able to crank some music that's less than perfectly recorded. And my System / Speakers still has to still be enjoyable and that's a more difficult combination, because the simpler music may sound a little cleaner on the more expensive Silver 10 + a woofer , it may not sound as good on things like Pink Floyd and Boston
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- At this point I'm leaning toward the F15 driver with an Eminence Alpha 15a Woofer , or an AE Woofer for the added deeper Bass. Even though many guys seem to be happy with just using the F15 driver alone in an Open Baffle, but when I decide that I want to play some Pink Floyd or Boston - I think that the F15 Driver may sound less congested if it doesn't have to play the serious low Bass notes while trying to play complex music - plus I really like my bass to sound clean and a dedicated woofer may help there.
- ( What I really would like to do is maybe try it both ways because I'm not sure how it will sound on things like Boston , Pink Floyd , and STYX. , So I'll set the speaker up where it is a single Full range Driver alone for my simpler Acoustic music and also try it on the more complex music , but then maybe I may have a switch to turn a woofer woofer along with it's own amplifier for the more complex music ... or if I want to crank it ) . . . . .
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- Hi leooki , well I think it really comes down to what kinds of music you listen to??
- And what if you have idea of your musical priorities that can help greatly with your decision too.......
--- The reason that your musical preferences can make your choices easier is that some Full Range Drivers may be sound their best with different kinds of music , for example ...
- The Silver 10 Driver is a very detail orientated speaker driver and can be much more revealing than some speaker other drivers , I know that Steve at Decware has said he now considers the Silver 10 speaker to be an essential and a invaluable tool for assessing any newly designed pieces of audio equipment and wouldn't won't to be without it now........... but at the same time he says he also really likes how the F15 Speakers sound too, so he is keeping both in his main listening room.
- - - - - -
This is may be getting into the deep end but ,
- the Silver 10 may also be more demanding of how well the music is recorded - maybe even showing more flaws in the recording process.... , and also maybe revealing how good of an Amplifier you are using with it too , but how well someone can adjust to that is hard to say without them having heard the speaker....
- so the Preamplifier and Amplifier you choose May be more important on the silver 10 than the F15 speaker driver, one guy described his Silver 10 as being harder to dial in , he said he had to work a little harder to get the Silver 10 along with the Bass driver to sound exactly how he wanted them to , but he after he did get them -- " dialed in " -- he liked the Silver 10 a little better than the F15 he had tried first.
- On the other hand the F15 Speaker Driver while still having great detail has been described as being more Musical of the two drivers by people who have had both drivers in their systems.... The F15 can still be a very revealing speaker but seems to be easier to dial in , not as critical as to which Amplifier and Preamplifier are being used with it..... but still some amps and preamps will still sound better on it than others because it is still a Very good quality driver and the better the equipment is the better the F15 will sound too.
I hope this helps a little with trying to decide which way to go....
- The other thing to consider is that at - $ 399.00 - the F15 driver is really not a very expensive pair of drivers for just how good they are! , And if you decide you want to try the Silver 10 with a Bass driver down the road , and you end up liking them more , you can probably sell the F15 for around - $199 or more , so you wont be out very much money for having tried it - 🙂
----------------------------------------------
Not to confuse things too much but here is what I am leaning toward -
MUSIC
- -- As an Example I like a lot of different kinds of Music - most every thing but Rap , and although I like Classical it's not my favorite so not too often , and sometimes I'm also the mood for Jazz , but The music I listen to most is - Contempory Christian Music .... and Female vocals like -- Alison Krause , Jheena Lodwick , Emilie-Claire Barlow, Margo Timmi - (Cowboy Junkies) , Mary black , Loreena Mckennitt , Petra Magoni - (Musical Nuda) - and then I like many Male Vocalists , like the male vocal group - Home Free , or singers like -- Mel Torme , Chris Isaak... and 70's singers like - Boz Scaggs , Dan Hill , Billy Joel , James Taylor , Paul Davis - etc ...
- Then I also like lot of other kinds of Music like -- NILS LOFGREN - (Acoustic Live) , Justin Johnson - (Turquoise Trail) , fink - (Perfect Darkness) , Michael Franks - ( Sleeping Gypsy) , Joe Bonamassa , DIRE STRAITS - (Love Over Gold- etc) , Gary Moore - ( Still Got The Blues) , Stevie Ray Vaughan - (Double Trouble) ... etc.
- But Then also sometimes I get in a mood to put on - PINK FLOYD , BOSTON , EAGLES , FLEETWOOD MAC , SUPERTRAMP , STYX , TOTO , SANTANA , or even ENIGMA , and DEAD CAN DANCE ....
--- So all this is to say that on one hand I like fairly simple Acoustic music - but for me I also need to be able to crank some music that's less than perfectly recorded. And my System / Speakers still has to still be enjoyable and that's a more difficult combination, because the simpler music may sound a little cleaner on the more expensive Silver 10 + a woofer , it may not sound as good on things like Pink Floyd and Boston
-----------
- At this point I'm leaning toward the F15 driver with an Eminence Alpha 15a Woofer , or an AE Woofer for the added deeper Bass. Even though many guys seem to be happy with just using the F15 driver alone in an Open Baffle, but when I decide that I want to play some Pink Floyd or Boston - I think that the F15 Driver may sound less congested if it doesn't have to play the serious low Bass notes while trying to play complex music - plus I really like my bass to sound clean and a dedicated woofer may help there.
- ( What I really would like to do is maybe try it both ways because I'm not sure how it will sound on things like Boston , Pink Floyd , and STYX. , So I'll set the speaker up where it is a single Full range Driver alone for my simpler Acoustic music and also try it on the more complex music , but then maybe I may have a switch to turn a woofer woofer along with it's own amplifier for the more complex music ... or if I want to crank it ) . . . . .
,
That was my reason for adding the 18"ers on the bottom. I didnt want the F15 cones making any displacement excursions to make the bass notes.
it's hard to get 1 speaker can give you satisfaction on all music genre. my best suggestion is to buy them all on your list, started from the cheapest one and play with different construction
when you have more money, buy another one which is more expensive then later you can justify it's worthed or not
trust me, when you started to list a driver on your dream bucket, one day you'll come back to buy iy anyway. it's just like your wife looking at those hand bags, 1 or 2 or 3 is never enough
i think Lii Fast8 or Silver6 are the same price, you can start with that. additional eminence woofer is a good option which later you can use it or not
It does not matter that much which drivers you use in these types of scenarios, other than the thing that if you're in Europe I think Eminence is somewhat overpriced, but I do recommend: "Double surface area for bass"
Which is sort of my own golden rule. If you have a multiway speaker where some of the drivers are less than double the size of the driver it crosses over to, then it's overcomplicated and would possible perform better if some other compromises where made.
A single 18" would be enough for just about anything in OB, but then most would probably adjust the top driver down a little bit, if you want equal gain for both drivers then double is the way to go.
In Europe the 15LB075-UW4 from Thomann would be most bang for the buck, but it's a 4 ohm driver so if you want 2 then you might be better off getting a couple Fane Sovereign15-400LF instead. If you could tolerate having a vented box for bass then a single 15LB075-UW4 might be enough, otherwise get either a single 18", double 15", or single 21".
For rock and those other genres you list then I highly recommend you not skimp on the driver membrane area, most of the time I listen very low, but sometimes it's nice to feel my pants vibrate! 😀 ahem...
I would also consider getting plate amps or something else with filters for bass duty, but you can also get by just using some coils to filter away some of the stuff a woofer is not meant to play.
I agree about the added woofer , and most guys are using some kind of plate amplifier, or other amplifier options , I have read that several are also using the Crown XLS 1002 for their added Woofer. I believe the Crown might allow you to have finer control over the crossover frequencies...
For me getting those Lii drivers was simply an experiment as I had never really listened to a proper full range/open baffle combination. First I was contemplating the F15, but I do like bass and thus decided to go for the larger model. Initially I used them without bass support, but as I have a sub around anyway, I decided to give it a go with some support below 70Hz. My DSP is a Xilica device which I also use (and enjoy) to run my horns (and which also show in the pic). Amplification is a combination of vintage and modern: Pioneer Exclusive C3a preamp and Sabaj A20 Class D amp. BTW: Since getting the Liis the horns have been kind of "unemployed".....🤔.
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Hi Everyone...
I have ordered F15 from Lii Audio Spain...and now while I am waiting for its arrival I will work on designing the baffle...I have read all these threads regarding open baffle construction last 2-3 years, from a lot of different sites and so on...Decware, Caintuck, Glow in the dark, etc...also many videos with F15 and different baffle shapes...To summarize it all, I am in doubt, to build a baffle same as Decware ZF15L from highly respected Mr. Steve Deckert, everyone is talking superlative about this semi-rounded shape (some magic is happening here, and I believe him)...Also, I am thinking of maybe designing a square shape with similar dimensions, but in the lower 2/3 of height put a u shaped wings (U frame according to the law of physics described in linkwitzlab formulas) to maybe enhance the bass a little...My room is 29m2, and listening to a lot of different genres...Later maybe will also add a up fireing twitter with a wood cone or sphere (like Leonidas did). Material will be 2x18mm joint together laminated MDF... Thank you very much for your kind opinions in advance.
I have ordered F15 from Lii Audio Spain...and now while I am waiting for its arrival I will work on designing the baffle...I have read all these threads regarding open baffle construction last 2-3 years, from a lot of different sites and so on...Decware, Caintuck, Glow in the dark, etc...also many videos with F15 and different baffle shapes...To summarize it all, I am in doubt, to build a baffle same as Decware ZF15L from highly respected Mr. Steve Deckert, everyone is talking superlative about this semi-rounded shape (some magic is happening here, and I believe him)...Also, I am thinking of maybe designing a square shape with similar dimensions, but in the lower 2/3 of height put a u shaped wings (U frame according to the law of physics described in linkwitzlab formulas) to maybe enhance the bass a little...My room is 29m2, and listening to a lot of different genres...Later maybe will also add a up fireing twitter with a wood cone or sphere (like Leonidas did). Material will be 2x18mm joint together laminated MDF... Thank you very much for your kind opinions in advance.
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I made mine out of commercial conference room table-tops I found at a local state sponsored thrift. Great "tombstone" shape; was shocked when I saw them in a pile, new - I ran to the person in charge asking if they were for sale. Had to go back a couple rounds to finally get them; I bought 4. Use your imagination and see what you can find!
I have the F15 on top and an 18" helper on the bottom. I also put wings about the F15 to help with the bass rolloff there, but that was before I added the 18s. I just left them in place; the added mass about the F15's mounting gives them more solidity to push against.
Let's just say I have a nice wife; They do have covers made from pizza baking trays spray painted to match.
I have the F15 on top and an 18" helper on the bottom. I also put wings about the F15 to help with the bass rolloff there, but that was before I added the 18s. I just left them in place; the added mass about the F15's mounting gives them more solidity to push against.
Let's just say I have a nice wife; They do have covers made from pizza baking trays spray painted to match.
Thank you for your kind answer jjasniew, what was a difference between only F15 with and without wings?
And, why did you add 18 inch bass, is it really neceseary... Also, what do you think about this special Decware shape that sounds really magic on their video...I dont know which way to go for baffle dimensions...like Decware shape, of straight lines and maybe adding a wings for U -frame, but not completely, not to spoil to much open baffle sound...
And, why did you add 18 inch bass, is it really neceseary... Also, what do you think about this special Decware shape that sounds really magic on their video...I dont know which way to go for baffle dimensions...like Decware shape, of straight lines and maybe adding a wings for U -frame, but not completely, not to spoil to much open baffle sound...
