I can see your point.
But of all the designs you could copy the Barefoots are the most complex to reverse engineer. To me at least! ;-)
I think it might be easier to come up with a more conventional yet modular system. I'm thinking along the lines of a small 2way cone & dome job which you could travel with but at home connect it to two regular woofers to turn them into 3ways.
Personally I would prefer 'honest' bass from a properly sized box over electronic tricks but I also prefer 3ways to 2+sub as I like the idea of removing a couple of octaves of bass from the 2ways rather then just adding one octave at the bottom. It kinda 'destresses' them.
For amps if I'd start from scratch I'd probably go with Hypex modules.
As far as I know PMC uses them in some of their smaller models.
They used to use Flying Mole amps for the models where Brystons would be impossible price-wise but I think Flying Mole is no more.
I'll see your Buckingham Monitors and raise you a Dreadnought:
But they are still small compared to Quested HM415s!
then add some JBL 4351 and you have a nice LCR system! haha
That's a "feature" already built into the B2030A . . . with the flip of a back panel switch they go from their (adequate) ported bass to a rolloff suited for use with a subwoofer (or two). And I've put handles on the top of and pole mounts on the bottom of mine . . .
mm interesting , by copying some design , I don mean barefoot itself , i meant what is there on the internet like Vance Dickason ldc6 , Mark K s ER18DXT Monitor , Troels Gravesen Studio 101 Monitor and so on , by barefoots i simply meant some mtm+sub systems like barefoot sound micromain 27 , as for the portable , it doesn't need to be portable , i m not gonna move around once we settled ,...
I like the idea of a 3 way instead of 2 way+sub ... i liked the sub idea mainly because 90% of studio monitors are 2way and because I had the option to build the mid+high cab smaller and sealed , but with a 3way design i can do the same+cross the bass/mid higher ...
by the way do you recognize the drivers in barefoot mainmini ?
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hypex has a very good dsp as well it definitely is a tempting candidate for xos and filters , (of course not in my first attempt) as for the amp i really like to get my hands on some of those ice power amp modules , until now my future list is Volt bass driver + Morel mid and tweeter or maybe scanspeak mid and tweeter + ICE power amps + hypex dsp
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thanks dude , i already have an archive of maybe +40 of loudspeakers and monitor designs to study 😀
I haven't heard them side-by-side but in every comparative review of class d amps I have read the Hypex-based amps easily came out on top of the ICEpower-based ones.
One thing I've noticed about the tweeters which seem to be popular with monitor manufacturers is that they have an above average CSD ie the dome stops moving more quickly than others after an input impulse. Even at the expense of the distortion being slightly above what is technically possible. May be they are onto something?
One thing I've noticed about the tweeters which seem to be popular with monitor manufacturers is that they have an above average CSD ie the dome stops moving more quickly than others after an input impulse. Even at the expense of the distortion being slightly above what is technically possible. May be they are onto something?
mm , interesting , didn't know bout that ,
I have two more questions :
-what about using pa drivers along with hifi drivers , as I see lots of them using PAs for their bass driver , what r the benefits and disadvantages of that ?
-why almost all the monitors shape rectangular cubes with sharp edges ? the shape that everybody try to avoid ?
I can help here a little bit.
The main advantage with PA drivers is the fact that they are more efficient so they dont require alot of power and also they tend to have a higher thermal capacity so that you can play them louder and longer without the risk of damage. Some even beleive that since they are more efficient that the speakers sound more "effortless"
This is something that I tend to agree with myself with the experience I have in audio thus far.
Disadvantage is that they don't cover as wide as a bandwidth as their xmax is usually very limited as it is the trade off for the higher efficiency.
I know sharp edges can cause problems but the reason for such designs has a lot to do with Baffle Step Loss and reducing its affects on the midrange.
The main advantage with PA drivers is the fact that they are more efficient so they dont require alot of power and also they tend to have a higher thermal capacity so that you can play them louder and longer without the risk of damage. Some even beleive that since they are more efficient that the speakers sound more "effortless"
This is something that I tend to agree with myself with the experience I have in audio thus far.
Disadvantage is that they don't cover as wide as a bandwidth as their xmax is usually very limited as it is the trade off for the higher efficiency.
I know sharp edges can cause problems but the reason for such designs has a lot to do with Baffle Step Loss and reducing its affects on the midrange.
Every penny I have made in my life was and is mixing playing writing music, reviewing gear. Hell I've bought big toys too.
All leads me to tell you use 8 inch woofer and 1 inch dome tweeter.You can make these. Use what you learn here from these guys to get them flat. Don't get caught up in the Mega dollar monitor BS. I've done great mixes on cheap speakers and crappy mixes on Mega Buck Speakers. The variable was my experience, the flatness of the speaker/room circuit.
This industry thrives on ******** people readily buy into it. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone throw away something this industry later came to worship. There are makers out there throwing around BS that literally makes me want to puke. Good high current amps with good damping factor helps too but that one is easy. There really is no magic in speakers. That's in your ears and fingers. One more thing a sub crossed over BELOW 45 when the Hip Hop n Techno guys are in the room. Off when you mix. On to check the subtones. Off to mix when they are gone. (-:
On mixing rock bands : its the fine art if finding the mix that every one in the band secretly believed they are the loudest. (*: This ironically happened when you do the final mix at very low levels. (-:
All leads me to tell you use 8 inch woofer and 1 inch dome tweeter.You can make these. Use what you learn here from these guys to get them flat. Don't get caught up in the Mega dollar monitor BS. I've done great mixes on cheap speakers and crappy mixes on Mega Buck Speakers. The variable was my experience, the flatness of the speaker/room circuit.
This industry thrives on ******** people readily buy into it. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone throw away something this industry later came to worship. There are makers out there throwing around BS that literally makes me want to puke. Good high current amps with good damping factor helps too but that one is easy. There really is no magic in speakers. That's in your ears and fingers. One more thing a sub crossed over BELOW 45 when the Hip Hop n Techno guys are in the room. Off when you mix. On to check the subtones. Off to mix when they are gone. (-:
On mixing rock bands : its the fine art if finding the mix that every one in the band secretly believed they are the loudest. (*: This ironically happened when you do the final mix at very low levels. (-:
Ahmad if you really want an MTM design and are not averse to using 'PA' these look very decent to me:
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/5P200Fe.pdf
(the 6" and 8" in this series look good too btw)
The area of two of these is roughly equivalent to one 7" woofer. As usual Beyma is a bit optimistic with the stated efficiency, looking at the graph I'd call it 90dB.
Two of them in parallel mated to a nice small-flanged 4Ohm 93dB tweeter could come out very decent and with plenty of headroom which I find very important with monitors.
Something like this may be: http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/downloads/SBA/SB29RDNC-C000-4.pdf
Coupled with a Volt 10,12 or 15 inch woofer crossed in at around 200Hz that could become a very capable, low distortion system for not all that much cash.
Personally I'm not so sure about MTMs, it seems difficult to get the spacing small enough.
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/5P200Fe.pdf
(the 6" and 8" in this series look good too btw)
The area of two of these is roughly equivalent to one 7" woofer. As usual Beyma is a bit optimistic with the stated efficiency, looking at the graph I'd call it 90dB.
Two of them in parallel mated to a nice small-flanged 4Ohm 93dB tweeter could come out very decent and with plenty of headroom which I find very important with monitors.
Something like this may be: http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/downloads/SBA/SB29RDNC-C000-4.pdf
Coupled with a Volt 10,12 or 15 inch woofer crossed in at around 200Hz that could become a very capable, low distortion system for not all that much cash.
Personally I'm not so sure about MTMs, it seems difficult to get the spacing small enough.
In a studio monitor I would cross to a sub, if used at all, very low and very precisely. Again we have to strive for the median while maintaining accuracy. I am always wary of bass to mid bass issues clouding an otherwise great mix.
thanks for replies , it is still too soon for me to decide how i finally gonna build it , but from what I learned here , if I wanna go for an MTM i probably would go with a 3way instead but still not sure between 2 or 3way , of course in a 3way I can have more balance through frequency range but is it really necessary ?and if I get acceptable results with a 2way , why go 3 way , any way , it gonna depends on lots of things specially my budget , but you know well how this things go , you probably gonna end up building and testing all possibilities 😀
with a inaccurate cost analysis i m gonna end up :
2*volt bass driver = 400$
2*morel or SS tweeter = lets say 150$
+dsp+amps+cabinets+powersupply+others
I m gonna endup atleast around 1200-1300$
if I wanna go 3way = 1200+150$(midrange drivers)+300$more amps and powersupply = atleast around 1700$
I would definitely use high power drivers in a studio monitor, to prevent thermal compression. Perhaps not typical PA-drivers with a stiff suspension and low moving mass (limited low frequency reproduction), but still high power handling is an advantage. I've seen a Beyma datasheet of a 400W AES woofer (AES = 2hrs continuous) which already had 1 dB of power compression at 50 W AES. While an average of 50 W really is a lot, 1 dB of power compression might also be a problem. Different drivers may have different amounts of power compression, leading to a degraded response when played loud. In Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction there are some examples of studio monitors which have a dreadful frequency response when driven loud.
Also, an active crossover is a must. When drivers are near their mechanical or electrical limits (which happens often on short peaks), their impedance often changes dramatically. The transfer function of a passive crossover will also change. An active crossover does not have this problem.
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Reduced power compression is the reason Volt gives for their external basket ('radial') woofers.
I've never noticed any power compression problems with my 12" radials so they might have a point. Price is a bit of a drawback with them though…
I've never noticed any power compression problems with my 12" radials so they might have a point. Price is a bit of a drawback with them though…
Ahmad,
Came across this DIY studio monitor deisgn at diyAudio under the CSS section:
http://creativesound.ca/pdf/TritonManual.pdf
I have a Hypex UCD180HG DIY amp, while a friend has an ICEPower based amp. The ICEPower is pretty good, but the Hypex sounds better to both of us - specially more depth and grip at the low end.
Came across this DIY studio monitor deisgn at diyAudio under the CSS section:
http://creativesound.ca/pdf/TritonManual.pdf
I have a Hypex UCD180HG DIY amp, while a friend has an ICEPower based amp. The ICEPower is pretty good, but the Hypex sounds better to both of us - specially more depth and grip at the low end.
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