I am not certain why you or anyone else should pay so much attention
on what an individual here, that is obviously not interested in making a
purchase, thinks about the products you present.
I don't think the sales will suffer on account of it. Make your points and
let the buyers be the judges of what is or isn't.
We humans take pride of our achievements and glorify our work as art
or whatever, which is not the case mostly. I look at the little creatures
like insects or a flower and then realize how easily we forget what beauty
and art really is.
Thanks for posting that link. In turn, Manninen had posted a link to the German site, and that is the best test report I have seen about the TPL. The spectral decay chart clearly shows what many state here about avoiding frequencies below 2000Hz or so, if at all posible.
Not sure what your takeaway was regarding distortion level, but my reading of the measurements of the TPL-H is very positive.
What you see from this animation graph is :
At 110 dB and above peaks : 3° harmonics & followings climbs a lot around 1500 !
At 105 dB peaks and less you can XO it below as the distorsion % is not higher than 1%. I believe Vapor Audio used it in that context : in a hifi enclosure for casual domestic environment most of listeners have (not so loud !).
I never saw CSD plot about the TPL-150, but saw the flag ship dipole AMT from Mundorf in the commercial pdf flyer ! Not usable ever below 2 000 Hz and maybe better higher is better ! So the TPL stays a good choice ! But at the same price on can have a Raal 70-10 (not the better 70-20) with aphormous core. Ribbons seems have more détails but less dynamic, the opposite with AMT (my simple understanding). But as you say yourself, your tube amp dictate the choice !
You may also choice the ESS V1 from Heil as if a box bellow it, you can easily move it upon this box in the depth direction to have a very good time alignement to have less correction with a FIR soft !
Thanks for the tip about the 2560 from PHL on the german site, on the paper I would had choosed the 2460 for its good reputation but never heard both of them ! the 2560 seems close with a better transcient seing the T/S !
About the radiation pattern a MTM 6.5" may be a better choice if the center to center is less important than a single 8". not sure a 8" match the 80° dispersion of the beyma horn at 2K hZ better than 6.5"... and hard to believe than a 20g could be better at around the same BL than a 7g cone ! But hey, they tried not us !
would like to find polar map of the TPL150 and 150 H version !
regards
At 110 dB and above peaks : 3° harmonics & followings climbs a lot around 1500 !
At 105 dB peaks and less you can XO it below as the distorsion % is not higher than 1%. I believe Vapor Audio used it in that context : in a hifi enclosure for casual domestic environment most of listeners have (not so loud !).
I never saw CSD plot about the TPL-150, but saw the flag ship dipole AMT from Mundorf in the commercial pdf flyer ! Not usable ever below 2 000 Hz and maybe better higher is better ! So the TPL stays a good choice ! But at the same price on can have a Raal 70-10 (not the better 70-20) with aphormous core. Ribbons seems have more détails but less dynamic, the opposite with AMT (my simple understanding). But as you say yourself, your tube amp dictate the choice !
You may also choice the ESS V1 from Heil as if a box bellow it, you can easily move it upon this box in the depth direction to have a very good time alignement to have less correction with a FIR soft !
Thanks for the tip about the 2560 from PHL on the german site, on the paper I would had choosed the 2460 for its good reputation but never heard both of them ! the 2560 seems close with a better transcient seing the T/S !
About the radiation pattern a MTM 6.5" may be a better choice if the center to center is less important than a single 8". not sure a 8" match the 80° dispersion of the beyma horn at 2K hZ better than 6.5"... and hard to believe than a 20g could be better at around the same BL than a 7g cone ! But hey, they tried not us !
would like to find polar map of the TPL150 and 150 H version !
regards
Hi Lojzek,
expériences testimonials of experienced diyers and semi-pro stay very helpfull for beginners like Lewinski and I. They have not just only the knowledge but also the experience of trade offs with the proof in trhe pudding about it. Usefull to try to avoid the most biggest issues for the beginners !
So what ever pro, semi-pro and diyers, it's very usefull and one can hve to read between the lines in relation to his own needs !
About the nature... it's fractal 🙂 ! incredible no ? No circles at subatomic size ! Pi and the circle does not have a material testimonial in the nature... funny no ! It seems to be perfect mathematicly but is an approximation in relation to what the nature shows : fractals ! The model of circle is mathematicly viable but not from a point of view of the nature ! Amazing !
expériences testimonials of experienced diyers and semi-pro stay very helpfull for beginners like Lewinski and I. They have not just only the knowledge but also the experience of trade offs with the proof in trhe pudding about it. Usefull to try to avoid the most biggest issues for the beginners !
So what ever pro, semi-pro and diyers, it's very usefull and one can hve to read between the lines in relation to his own needs !
About the nature... it's fractal 🙂 ! incredible no ? No circles at subatomic size ! Pi and the circle does not have a material testimonial in the nature... funny no ! It seems to be perfect mathematicly but is an approximation in relation to what the nature shows : fractals ! The model of circle is mathematicly viable but not from a point of view of the nature ! Amazing !
Beyma publish -6dB beam width and directivity index (DI) graphs.
You can extrapolate a polar map from those.
Ah, I just don't know how ! My poor knowledge ! But understand now how the experienced diyers can do from your input to "sketch" two drivers between them from datasheets !
Interesting thread. I guess the bit that raises my eyebrows is the bit about the choice of drivers being customer driven. This makes sense for budgetary reasons, ie can't afford a Raal or Accuton then we'll give you a great system with a Transducer Lab or Wavecor.
But when you get to the supposed no compromise (in driver cost) offerings you lose me. If A Raal is the best option, why use any other? People are buying your vision of what creates a great speaker.
When you offer these different drivers and topologies and say they are all fabulous, I start to question your intentions.
Sure, the White and Black versions may both sound great. But one obviously sounds and measures better. Why sell the other?
If everything is perfect you become an expensive version of Danny Ritchie.
Yes sorry for the English-speaking.
how do you find the plot of a Horn with à specific profil and how to choose the angle of à circular driver to find the XO. For instance with 80 degree horizontal with the Tpl150 H.
the curves should cross at -3 dB if LR2 e.g. ?
you need à soft for à simulation from the T/S parameters or you need to measure with à mic the 2 drivers in real them load the curves in a soft?
how to choose the second driver without a polar Mao provided by the manufacture.
that was the spirit of my previous question.
Thanks AllenB for the nice proposal...
how do you find the plot of a Horn with à specific profil and how to choose the angle of à circular driver to find the XO. For instance with 80 degree horizontal with the Tpl150 H.
the curves should cross at -3 dB if LR2 e.g. ?
you need à soft for à simulation from the T/S parameters or you need to measure with à mic the 2 drivers in real them load the curves in a soft?
how to choose the second driver without a polar Mao provided by the manufacture.
that was the spirit of my previous question.
Thanks AllenB for the nice proposal...
I discussed this somewhere before. If I remember either 2 x 6.5" MTM.. or 1 x 8". I don't own a TPL, so this is just theory. Either you can try to match 80 x 60 at 2kHz, or 70 at 2kHz.
The waveguide has a square mouth, where it reaches 90 x 90 near 1100Hz.
I think I would prefer to cross it as low as it is comfortable to be crossed. More when going to a round driver. Some say the TPL is better above 2kHz, I would first find out if this is because of the driver or the waveguide (or something else), and fix that.
It would be best to measure, of course but maybe it can be done more easily. An 8" driver should give 90 degrees at maybe 1500Hz. If you are making a waveguide then the driver T/S parameters can be less important than a horn, and make sure there is a good roundover/radius.
ok thanks, 🙂
matching the 80x30 stock horn of the TPLH150 at 2K hZ with two 6.5" at 2k hz should be easier despite the advise of the german guy for a single 8" or two 8" in MTM, or than to make a diy horn.
The ctc in a MTM with a planar seems to be less important than the polar patterns matching between the drivers !
matching the 80x30 stock horn of the TPLH150 at 2K hZ with two 6.5" at 2k hz should be easier despite the advise of the german guy for a single 8" or two 8" in MTM, or than to make a diy horn.
The ctc in a MTM with a planar seems to be less important than the polar patterns matching between the drivers !
We offer two speakers that don't use RAAL. The Aurora and Arcus are the only two models that feature something other than RAAL, both because RAAL can't do what we needed the tweeter to do.
In Aurora, we use an 8" woofer crossed at 1000Hz to a waveguide loaded, ceramic, Transducer labs tweeter. None of the RAAL ribbons reach that low. Similarly, Arcus uses a 10" woofer crossed at 1000Hz to a large AMT. Everything else we do uses RAAL for the high frequencies.
The black/white thing is there because some customers simply like/dislike Accuton drivers. For those that like, we offer white. For those that don't, we offer either the Wavecor (Nimbus) or Audio Technology. Why make only one version? Why lose the sale because a potential customer simply has a bias against Accuton? Not everyone hears everything the same way. Some people, for whatever reason, love OB speakers, others love single driver full range . . . go figure. In our black/white versions, we attempt to get the best from the drivers in use which results in different crossovers. Both versions measure very well: smooth flat response and very low distortion. They both sound great, voiced by the same set of ears that voices every other speaker.
In our Joule black, the Audio Tech mid allows us to implement LR2 for both woofer/mid and mid/tweeter crossovers. The Accuton mid requires LR4 with the tweeter. The two models have subtle differences in presentation because of this slope difference even though both measure "flat" and stay within .5dB of each other.
I personally like every speaker we make. They all sound great. That's on purpose by the way. But they don't sound the same of course. Aurora for example has prodigious bass output that Cirrus simply can't match. We built a custom version of Aurora that uses an Audio Technology FlexUnit 8" woofer (instead of the standard Vifa) and the Beryllium Transducer labs tweeter. It has similar but different presentation to the nominal Aurora. The drivers don't sound the same even though we set the frequency response to be "flat" in both versions. The Audiotech version plays to higher levels without audible strain compared to the Vifa version. It just sounds cleaner during complex passages.
There's more than one way to design and build a speaker.
At a certain point, very good designs are difficult to compare as there isn't really a best, just different. Then preference comes in. For that reason I don't see why using different drivers should be looked at as a compromise of design ideals, it simply gives more freedom for the end user's preference.
That is because even at their best they are hitting maybe 10-20% of "perfect". Pretty easy to make valid trade offs and end up with very different speakers that could qualify as best.
dave
CTC spacing with directional (V) speakers might be relaxed without cancellation concerns. This kind of thing is commonplace with horns. Lobing can't occur where the sound doesn't go. YMMV.
That's the thing, they will may not be very different. Only slightly different. And those differences are most appreciated on different music, by different ears. What's wrong with that?
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