For the past several weeks I have been listening to my new horns to learn all about how they sound compared to other waveguide/horns (ie...QSC HPR-152i clones) or ribbon 2-way designs.
Im currently using the IWATA/TAD horn on top of TD12S woofers and setting the XOs on the fly with MiniDSP. I run ARTA and listen to all the different settings. Having basic 3rd order BW XO around 500Hz seems to sound pretty good and setting the delay/phase/ etc seems to give me a nice smooth response. I have also EQed the upper end of the TAD TD-1401 flat for on axis, 2 meter listening tests. My room is an HT room that is full treated with 2" OC703 on the walls so reflections are not that much of an issue.
Im not looking for XO discussions instead Im looking more for clarification on the "How do they sound" from those who have lots of experience with larger horns.
First the TADs are so damn smooth, I was amazed and happy BUT after listening there seems to be a "VOID" somewhere but I can not figure it out. Is this just an experience thing with me?? I have a hard time thinking how to explain it, its like the music is there but everything is sucked sort out...no lingering energy (I Guess 😕). Is this common or is it because the 2" CD will lose too much HF response??
I thought maybe it was the HF stuff but I have the BMS 4590 too with passive XOs so I tried them and again the horn does a great job (little more grainy though) and again there seems to be something left behind compared to all my other designs. I just can not explain it and Im not saying its bad. I just have no experience with larger high quality horns.
btw, I have also tried different bass bin configurations that run up to 500Hz and all sound similar so I do not think its the bass bin/woofer choice.
Im currently using the IWATA/TAD horn on top of TD12S woofers and setting the XOs on the fly with MiniDSP. I run ARTA and listen to all the different settings. Having basic 3rd order BW XO around 500Hz seems to sound pretty good and setting the delay/phase/ etc seems to give me a nice smooth response. I have also EQed the upper end of the TAD TD-1401 flat for on axis, 2 meter listening tests. My room is an HT room that is full treated with 2" OC703 on the walls so reflections are not that much of an issue.
Im not looking for XO discussions instead Im looking more for clarification on the "How do they sound" from those who have lots of experience with larger horns.
First the TADs are so damn smooth, I was amazed and happy BUT after listening there seems to be a "VOID" somewhere but I can not figure it out. Is this just an experience thing with me?? I have a hard time thinking how to explain it, its like the music is there but everything is sucked sort out...no lingering energy (I Guess 😕). Is this common or is it because the 2" CD will lose too much HF response??
I thought maybe it was the HF stuff but I have the BMS 4590 too with passive XOs so I tried them and again the horn does a great job (little more grainy though) and again there seems to be something left behind compared to all my other designs. I just can not explain it and Im not saying its bad. I just have no experience with larger high quality horns.
btw, I have also tried different bass bin configurations that run up to 500Hz and all sound similar so I do not think its the bass bin/woofer choice.
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I would lose the digital EQ to start tests.
put a simple cap on the compression driver... keep ur levels relatively low, use the digital EQ LP on the woofer, make sure it is as high a slope as possible. Try to keep the woofer OUT of the passband of the horn...
The woofer and the horn need to be in phase and "time aligned". In practice, unless you have delays in the EQ unit the VC of the two drivers needs to be in the same vertical plane - that puts the horn in front of the woofers usually.
Use an impulse response from an FFT box to "see" the relationship between the two.
When you have that right it will be visibly obvious.
In the meantime, the Iwata probably does not really go all the way down to 300.
I'd measure it.
Levels between the two are important. I'd use Pink Noise at the listening position to set levels. Start with the woofers. Then slowly bring in the horns until you can just notice the horns and hear the "waterfall", not the horns - this works assuming the response of the two is reasonably flat wrt peaks in the response, especially wide ones... the ear will focus on the higher level...
sounds to me like ur not in phase acoustically and/or the levels are way off, and/or the freq response is non-flat in ways that makes it difficult to set the levels.
Starting with the cap only, you can listen to what the horn does... is it sounding too present in one or more ranges? solo high female voices should sound almost right, but a little thin...
whats the amplification, etc?
how about some pix?
_-_-bear
PS. IF ur signal chain is up to it, you will not have any sizzle in the system - if ur used to sizzle, you might notice the lack... also it may not make it up past ~14khz. Some gentle EQ is often used in these horns to pull things up above ~10kHz. but not try to make it flat out to 20...
put a simple cap on the compression driver... keep ur levels relatively low, use the digital EQ LP on the woofer, make sure it is as high a slope as possible. Try to keep the woofer OUT of the passband of the horn...
The woofer and the horn need to be in phase and "time aligned". In practice, unless you have delays in the EQ unit the VC of the two drivers needs to be in the same vertical plane - that puts the horn in front of the woofers usually.
Use an impulse response from an FFT box to "see" the relationship between the two.
When you have that right it will be visibly obvious.
In the meantime, the Iwata probably does not really go all the way down to 300.
I'd measure it.
Levels between the two are important. I'd use Pink Noise at the listening position to set levels. Start with the woofers. Then slowly bring in the horns until you can just notice the horns and hear the "waterfall", not the horns - this works assuming the response of the two is reasonably flat wrt peaks in the response, especially wide ones... the ear will focus on the higher level...
sounds to me like ur not in phase acoustically and/or the levels are way off, and/or the freq response is non-flat in ways that makes it difficult to set the levels.
Starting with the cap only, you can listen to what the horn does... is it sounding too present in one or more ranges? solo high female voices should sound almost right, but a little thin...
whats the amplification, etc?
how about some pix?
_-_-bear
PS. IF ur signal chain is up to it, you will not have any sizzle in the system - if ur used to sizzle, you might notice the lack... also it may not make it up past ~14khz. Some gentle EQ is often used in these horns to pull things up above ~10kHz. but not try to make it flat out to 20...
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The obvious question is, you say that it's smooth, but is there a broad low-level dip somewhere in the response?
Also, maybe your room is just too dead from excessive treatments, and you're missing the sense of space because of it.
Also, maybe your room is just too dead from excessive treatments, and you're missing the sense of space because of it.
You will need an autoformer for the mid horns/drivers:
+Autotransformer+für+Hornspeaker++und+Altec+Crossover+ | eBay
+Autotransformer+für+Hornspeaker++und+Altec+Crossover+ | eBay
Are you talking about missing envelopment?
Brobablu this. QSC-s don't have this problem? Whats the directivity of the Iwata? If you kill all lateral reflections in your room with beaming speakers and room treatments, you have to compensate it somehow. Try a multichannel upmixer and additional speaker at about -75/+75 degrees. Or remove all sidewall treatments and/or use wider directivity speakers.
My experience is large mid horns sound much better with this autoformer. I cannot explain it technically though. It's better on on Klipschorns and on my 72cm (28") wide Jabos. I have no experience with active XO.
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The autoformer may be nice, but you don't need it for great sound with the TAD-Iwata. A resistive divider will work just fine. I suspect crossover issues as bear has noted.
In part it "sounds" as if it's related to off-axis energy. However..
Questions:
1. How is total depth of field?
2. How is depth of "images"?
3. How developed are those images in "3D"
4. Is lateral positioning more or less "discreet"? (more would be L/C/R, less would be more continuous laterally.)
How would you respond to these questions if you raised the crossover up to 1.5 kHz?
..BTW, do you mean TD 4001?
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With that autoformer, you are placing a small inductance in series with the driver for starters... beyond that, I fail to understand why it would be a benefit... and where the highpass comes from....
_-_-bear
_-_-bear
Redacted to the Problem Essence
I suspect that you have already answered your own question! Move your rig to a listening space that is not over damped and listen to it there. An acoustically live room is the missing element here. Only bats can detect the HF roll-off a TD-4001/2/3, this is not the problem.
Regards,
WHG
I suspect that you have already answered your own question! Move your rig to a listening space that is not over damped and listen to it there. An acoustically live room is the missing element here. Only bats can detect the HF roll-off a TD-4001/2/3, this is not the problem.
Regards,
WHG
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