I WANT A LABHORN
tom didnt use mcbeans program?
i presume that you must start a the source of the info-aes articles
its tricky stuff.
ive seen the mathcad files for tlines-im glad it works out the equations itself!!!!!!!!!!!!
ive been looking at the labhorn,,
i wonder what would happen if ppl use a different driver with similar Q and vas.
its hard to see what happens at the throat and driver area.
i want one now!
They need a proper Information part with specs on it,rather than wade through the piles of posts.
eg hyperbolic 0.5T 500cm^2 > 5500cm^2 45litre rearbox, etc etc.
109db/1watt/1metre effiicency,, but its interesting how that measurement may not be taht applicable .
..
i just need to have 1 driver not 2.
and as for as i understand,i would need to run it in the corner to have any decent ouput,probably still need some EQ
but so efficient!
ive been using mcbeans program and got some decent responses with their dimensions(cornerhorn)
i think its 1.1metres x1.1metresx 0.5metres :-D 600litres or somthing
the largest box i have right now is 2x75litre boxes hahah such a difference.
perhaps in he NOT so soon future il get one
tom didnt use mcbeans program?
i presume that you must start a the source of the info-aes articles
its tricky stuff.
ive seen the mathcad files for tlines-im glad it works out the equations itself!!!!!!!!!!!!
ive been looking at the labhorn,,
i wonder what would happen if ppl use a different driver with similar Q and vas.
its hard to see what happens at the throat and driver area.
i want one now!
They need a proper Information part with specs on it,rather than wade through the piles of posts.
eg hyperbolic 0.5T 500cm^2 > 5500cm^2 45litre rearbox, etc etc.
109db/1watt/1metre effiicency,, but its interesting how that measurement may not be taht applicable .
..
i just need to have 1 driver not 2.
and as for as i understand,i would need to run it in the corner to have any decent ouput,probably still need some EQ
but so efficient!
ive been using mcbeans program and got some decent responses with their dimensions(cornerhorn)
i think its 1.1metres x1.1metresx 0.5metres :-D 600litres or somthing
the largest box i have right now is 2x75litre boxes hahah such a difference.
perhaps in he NOT so soon future il get one
Re: I WANT A LABHORN
No. He wrote his own.
Build them full size, and they're strightforward enough. But under 200Hz or so compromises start to loom, and compromisws need to be made to get good performance. A thorough understanding of the physics involved helps.
If you use a different driver, you'll have a compromised design. The reason the LAB works so well is that the driver and horn were designed together, and the parameters tweaked and design tradeoffs made by someone who knew what they were doing.
If you read back through the archives, he's basically sid what he's done, but the tricky part was the throat, which apparently is wrong, but works correctly. Paul Klipsch also seemed to be good at this trick.
There are also some nuggets in the AA High Eff speaker archives under the monikers tomservo (guess who) and Mark Seaton. Whilst you're digging there, though not related specifically to the LAB, posts by Bruce Edgar, djk (who also posts here), wgeiger, str8aro, hancock and Jeff Robinson amongst others also have bits of useful info in them about horn design.
If you looked at the measured responses and the projections, it seems to ne about 106dB around 100Hz, falling quite uniformly below that. A 20Hz HPF should compensate adequately, and will put the effective efficiency at around 100dB, and get to probably 25Hz. I wouldn't use it above 100Hz-ish. Mine will be 7- or 80Hz and lower.
However, the distortion will be much lower then any any other type of bass configuration, both because of the relative lack of displacement required for domestic levels, and the damping action of the air in the throat. Horn bass sounds 'light' until you get used to it; that's the lack of distortion.
Build the LAB as per the plans or build something else.
A corner would be nice, and some EQ will probably be required, but 1/4 space loading and a bit more EQ will be fine, though you'll need more amp power. It'll also depend on you're room size, shape and the solidity of the walls how much EQ is required.
There is a neato little thing called Hoffman's Iron Law. It says of the three conflicting requirements, frequency response, efficiency and size, you can have two, never three. The LAB has awesome performance for it's size.
McBeans program is excellent, but won't tell you where to make the compromises in a bass horn to get it to sound good. Horns are not plug and play like sealed and ported boxes.
For some ideas for a single driver basshorn, try
http://www.geocities.com/loudspeakerguru/
Good luck.
mikee12345 said:
No. He wrote his own.
Build them full size, and they're strightforward enough. But under 200Hz or so compromises start to loom, and compromisws need to be made to get good performance. A thorough understanding of the physics involved helps.
If you use a different driver, you'll have a compromised design. The reason the LAB works so well is that the driver and horn were designed together, and the parameters tweaked and design tradeoffs made by someone who knew what they were doing.
If you read back through the archives, he's basically sid what he's done, but the tricky part was the throat, which apparently is wrong, but works correctly. Paul Klipsch also seemed to be good at this trick.
There are also some nuggets in the AA High Eff speaker archives under the monikers tomservo (guess who) and Mark Seaton. Whilst you're digging there, though not related specifically to the LAB, posts by Bruce Edgar, djk (who also posts here), wgeiger, str8aro, hancock and Jeff Robinson amongst others also have bits of useful info in them about horn design.
If you looked at the measured responses and the projections, it seems to ne about 106dB around 100Hz, falling quite uniformly below that. A 20Hz HPF should compensate adequately, and will put the effective efficiency at around 100dB, and get to probably 25Hz. I wouldn't use it above 100Hz-ish. Mine will be 7- or 80Hz and lower.
However, the distortion will be much lower then any any other type of bass configuration, both because of the relative lack of displacement required for domestic levels, and the damping action of the air in the throat. Horn bass sounds 'light' until you get used to it; that's the lack of distortion.
Build the LAB as per the plans or build something else.
A corner would be nice, and some EQ will probably be required, but 1/4 space loading and a bit more EQ will be fine, though you'll need more amp power. It'll also depend on you're room size, shape and the solidity of the walls how much EQ is required.
but so efficient!
ive been using mcbeans program and got some decent responses with their dimensions(cornerhorn)
i think its 1.1metres x1.1metresx 0.5metres :-D 600litres or somthing
the largest box i have right now is 2x75litre boxes hahah such a difference.
There is a neato little thing called Hoffman's Iron Law. It says of the three conflicting requirements, frequency response, efficiency and size, you can have two, never three. The LAB has awesome performance for it's size.
McBeans program is excellent, but won't tell you where to make the compromises in a bass horn to get it to sound good. Horns are not plug and play like sealed and ported boxes.
For some ideas for a single driver basshorn, try
http://www.geocities.com/loudspeakerguru/
Good luck.
brett: u confirmed what i thought :-D
i will search for more info.
ye mcbeans is for inputting data and seeing what happens rather than optimising which u have to do by knowledge 😛 so many parameters.
i see a labhorn or somthing similar gracing my bedroom floor in the next few years!
ive seen that loudspeakerguru site it had some ok horns il go look again.
my listening rooms are -1 2.2 wide x 4 long (meters)
and lounge maybe 6x5metres,with a 1metre cavity(bassment) underneath woodenfloors.(Not the best for horns!)
somthing to read about for the moment 😛
i will search for more info.
ye mcbeans is for inputting data and seeing what happens rather than optimising which u have to do by knowledge 😛 so many parameters.
i see a labhorn or somthing similar gracing my bedroom floor in the next few years!
ive seen that loudspeakerguru site it had some ok horns il go look again.
my listening rooms are -1 2.2 wide x 4 long (meters)
and lounge maybe 6x5metres,with a 1metre cavity(bassment) underneath woodenfloors.(Not the best for horns!)
somthing to read about for the moment 😛
Do you have any more pictures like that?
Or, even better, are they any "official plans" for the lab, would one just peice it together through the lab forums?
Looks like there is a lot more to horn design than say, a closed box - But I am willing...
-andy
Or, even better, are they any "official plans" for the lab, would one just peice it together through the lab forums?
Looks like there is a lot more to horn design than say, a closed box - But I am willing...
-andy
A pair of these look ideal for home theater application - is size the only minus for this design. What about delay? I think I read somewhere abou delay causing problems in the higher freq's due to the length of the horn..
In home theater these would have to go to 120Hz, and an active type eq would be great to flatten down to 20 Hz (pref 15/10) Linkwitz transform?
I'd be well up for building a pair of these if the drivers don't cost too much.... Pinkmouse (Al ) You said you 'd be interested.. I can import the dxf files on the lab site and burn the panels on the laser at work.. Mail me if you're interested...
Cheers
Rob
In home theater these would have to go to 120Hz, and an active type eq would be great to flatten down to 20 Hz (pref 15/10) Linkwitz transform?
I'd be well up for building a pair of these if the drivers don't cost too much.... Pinkmouse (Al ) You said you 'd be interested.. I can import the dxf files on the lab site and burn the panels on the laser at work.. Mail me if you're interested...
Cheers
Rob
bostarob-on the forum htere is a link to the pics,and autocad files etc on the right hand side.
some one said the drivers are US 100 ea i dont know if htats true
some one said that the delay was 12ms or somthing.
which is less than a portdbox at resonance.,(i think)
oh lucky u with a laser!
😱
i wonder how much shipping a lab to New zealand would cost! hahahah
il stick to my 15inch 97db driver for now,perhaps undertake the labhorn at a later date ,but i feel il have to sometime soon!
some one said the drivers are US 100 ea i dont know if htats true
some one said that the delay was 12ms or somthing.
which is less than a portdbox at resonance.,(i think)
oh lucky u with a laser!
😱
i wonder how much shipping a lab to New zealand would cost! hahahah
il stick to my 15inch 97db driver for now,perhaps undertake the labhorn at a later date ,but i feel il have to sometime soon!
Hey Mikee,
I'm a die-maker by trade.. If you approach a local die-shop with the dxf file, they should be able to do a fair price on burning the stuff for you - we use ply by default, it's cheap as chips trade.....
Our laser time costs about $3.00 per meter cut, If you approach the company as a one off cash buyer you may do well (ie foreman does it in his lunchbreak for cash etc........)
There has to be some bonuses for my crappy job🙂
Rob
I'm a die-maker by trade.. If you approach a local die-shop with the dxf file, they should be able to do a fair price on burning the stuff for you - we use ply by default, it's cheap as chips trade.....
Our laser time costs about $3.00 per meter cut, If you approach the company as a one off cash buyer you may do well (ie foreman does it in his lunchbreak for cash etc........)
There has to be some bonuses for my crappy job🙂
Rob
bostarob said:
As mikee12345 said, the plans are on the forum.
Plus measurements using single - quad boxes.
Tons of pictures of every angle. And, of course,
a ton of designers on the forum that can answer
your questions.
Best Regards,
RobWells said:
You're not going to be able to EQ them much below the flare frequency, which IIRC is about 28Hz. Below that the driver behaves like it's in a small sealed box, and the output will plummet.
The paper by Leach was also published in the "Journal". So if someone has access to former volumes of JAES he might even copy it for free instead of buying/ordering the preprint.
I own a photocopy of it and I can find out when it was published if someone is interested.
Regards
Charles
/who once owned and built some hornspeakers
I own a photocopy of it and I can find out when it was published if someone is interested.
Regards
Charles
/who once owned and built some hornspeakers
phase_accurate said:
Keep in mind copyright issues. Perhaps a request to Mr Leach could get him to post the paper on his own website?
dave
Hi Dave
I don't intend to put the document on the web myself.
As far as copyright goes it is perfectly legal to copy books and magazines for oneself in my homecountry. You have to pay special taxes (quite low for private persons) as soon as you own a photocopier or fax therefore.
Regards
Charles
I don't intend to put the document on the web myself.
As far as copyright goes it is perfectly legal to copy books and magazines for oneself in my homecountry. You have to pay special taxes (quite low for private persons) as soon as you own a photocopier or fax therefore.
Regards
Charles
My late, Great Uncle, Arthur Gruber, was the treasurer for the AES for a long time, and did work on the tape heads for the 4 track. My Aunt told me she could get me articles, but... it may be easier just to buy it.
-andy
-andy
Re: Re: I WANT A LABHORN
One of the programs Tom uses was actually written while he was doing some contracting work for NASA.
I hear that hancock guy is a real a**hole...
John
Brett said:
One of the programs Tom uses was actually written while he was doing some contracting work for NASA.
Brett said:
I hear that hancock guy is a real a**hole...
The Leach paper is also in the AES Loudspeaker Anthologies. The Anthologies are definitely required reading if you want to take this hobby to the next level. Acoustic texts by Beranek and Olson are also a good place to start. Wish I had room for a LabHorn...phase_accurate said:
John
RobWells said:
Hi Rob
Just back from Vegas, knackered and broke😉
The Laser cutting stuff sounds good - but will it do compound mitres? There are some pretty cute angled cuts on those boxes, especially on the panels making up the horns.
The drivers are about £130 from BKelectronics, and although I can't really afford to build them now, it might be a good summer project...
pinkmouse said:
Good to see you are safely home. After you get a little less jet-lagged you'll have to give us an NAB overview.
dave
OT: John--the 2nd-order gradient man!
Hey John,
This is OT, I know, but your settings don't let me email you.
I'm very interested in 2nd-order gradient bass cabs, and I wondered if you'd be kind enough to start a thread on the concept, and specifically how they've worked for you. I visited your website having to do with FEA modelling, but I have to admit I was lost from near the beginning. Could you emphasize the practical over the theoretical, if you see fit to start the aforementioned thread?
Thanks!
And now, back to the regularly scheduled programming...
Hey John,
This is OT, I know, but your settings don't let me email you.
I'm very interested in 2nd-order gradient bass cabs, and I wondered if you'd be kind enough to start a thread on the concept, and specifically how they've worked for you. I visited your website having to do with FEA modelling, but I have to admit I was lost from near the beginning. Could you emphasize the practical over the theoretical, if you see fit to start the aforementioned thread?
Thanks!
And now, back to the regularly scheduled programming...
Hi Al ,
No the laser only does straight cut. I tend to do the mitred edge too long, and cut down last cut with a circ.
I've just moved house so I won't be doing any (audio) diy for a few weeks....
So thats £260 + wood per cab? Not bad for some serious bass..
Oh, Brett - I guess I could live with 25Hz😉
Cheers
Rob
No the laser only does straight cut. I tend to do the mitred edge too long, and cut down last cut with a circ.
I've just moved house so I won't be doing any (audio) diy for a few weeks....
So thats £260 + wood per cab? Not bad for some serious bass..
Oh, Brett - I guess I could live with 25Hz😉
Cheers
Rob
Rob
The thing with the Lab that makes it so complicated to build is that the horn has to be folded to make the box PA friendly both for stacking and compact truck packs. As ours will be built for home use it should be possible to reverse engineer the horn, and just build them straight, which should be easier to make. They should sound better as well.
I think I need to go back to the forum and do some reading!😉
Dave
Didn't actually get to see much of the show on open day, as my flight got transferred to another airline and I had to leave 12 hours earlier than planned🙁
But it all seemed very quiet, not really much there at all, and all the exhibitors I saw had greatly reduced booth size, (and budget). I suspect companies are holding off on major new product until the market picks up again.
The thing with the Lab that makes it so complicated to build is that the horn has to be folded to make the box PA friendly both for stacking and compact truck packs. As ours will be built for home use it should be possible to reverse engineer the horn, and just build them straight, which should be easier to make. They should sound better as well.
I think I need to go back to the forum and do some reading!😉
Dave
Didn't actually get to see much of the show on open day, as my flight got transferred to another airline and I had to leave 12 hours earlier than planned🙁
But it all seemed very quiet, not really much there at all, and all the exhibitors I saw had greatly reduced booth size, (and budget). I suspect companies are holding off on major new product until the market picks up again.
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