I find mains distribution quite fascinating. One of the concerns is how to restart the grid in case of a catastrophic outage. Never happened (at least in UK), but it's one of many things you don't think about until you are told.
@Rundmaus: Yes, here we call it 'grant farming'. Farmers are turning whole fields over to solar. Makes sense, you get guaranteed 30p/kwh. For home users its really silly, you get the grant, even if you use the electricity yourself. If you do feed back to the grid you get 3p/kwh for it. Yup, 30p just to generate it! We have some big problems in store down the line.
@Rundmaus: Yes, here we call it 'grant farming'. Farmers are turning whole fields over to solar. Makes sense, you get guaranteed 30p/kwh. For home users its really silly, you get the grant, even if you use the electricity yourself. If you do feed back to the grid you get 3p/kwh for it. Yup, 30p just to generate it! We have some big problems in store down the line.
That would be up to the local utility. One of the engineers I worked with in Florida got a solar system installed on his house. Some of it was subsidized by the US government, and some by the local power company. It still cost him several thousand USD, about half of the normal cost. His system could send power into the grid, which required a special power meter installed by FPL. The average rate paid for power he sent into the grid was about half of the cost of power consumed from the grid. The rate paid by FPL to the solar system owner was also depending on the utility demand at the time.
If you are producing less solar power than your total energy use, you are reducing your usage, and thus essentially saving money at the same rate you are being charged for power. It is only when you produce more solar power than your total energy use that you actually pump power into the grid. In south Florida where cooling cost are high it is rare for this to happen unless you shut your AC system off during the day while you are at work.
He was working on a system to store energy in batteries to somehow optimize energy use, but he got laid off before it was finished, sold his house and left Florida.
That special power meter probably was one that cant count back 😉
The mechanical ones that are still in the field here are quickly replaced for electronic ones that can only count up. Most recent ones also have cell phone capabilities so the power company can check your used power without visiting you. They can have 2 kWh prices programmed so one for "download" and one for "upload". The older mechanical ones just run backwards when feeding the grid so one gets the same price as one pays for energy which is lucrative. The people that still have mechanical meters (and solar panels) often refuse replacement of their old meter for this reason.
As I live in Germany I hear this way of thinking a lot. Still I think building low efficiency installations is not better than putting money on a bank (from a moral point of view). The subsidized renewable energy sources as those ugly low efficiency things are called also need to be paid and guess out of whose pocket that is paid...
The mechanical ones that are still in the field here are quickly replaced for electronic ones that can only count up. Most recent ones also have cell phone capabilities so the power company can check your used power without visiting you. They can have 2 kWh prices programmed so one for "download" and one for "upload". The older mechanical ones just run backwards when feeding the grid so one gets the same price as one pays for energy which is lucrative. The people that still have mechanical meters (and solar panels) often refuse replacement of their old meter for this reason.
As I live in Germany I hear this way of thinking a lot. Still I think building low efficiency installations is not better than putting money on a bank (from a moral point of view). The subsidized renewable energy sources as those ugly low efficiency things are called also need to be paid and guess out of whose pocket that is paid...
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In Hawaii "Net Metering" meant that you got to sell electricity to the utility at retail rates. At over 40 cents a KWH, that meant solar was paid back fast.
That is not allowed now for new customers. Seems to me that if the utilities did not have to pay full retail, they would have been OK with the idea, and not moved to stop it.
That is not allowed now for new customers. Seems to me that if the utilities did not have to pay full retail, they would have been OK with the idea, and not moved to stop it.
Most of the new meters used in the US Have RF capabilities, but it's not cell phone tech. More like WiFi, Actually a WiFi MESH network. Each meter is a node in a network, known as a mesh. Each meter can transmit and receive messages, and can also store and forward messages. They usually operate in one of the ISM frequency bands, 902 MHz or 2.4 GHZ.
Oh, but it does, though not as frequently.
I lived on a farm on the south edge of Langley, British Columbia (almost touching the US-Canada border) for a couple of years. During those two years, we had several power outages that lasted multiple days.
The worst outage was caused by a tremendous windstorm that brought down trees all over the region, felling power poles and ripping out power lines with them. ( Windstorm knocks out power to 80,000 across Metro Vancouver - British Columbia - CBC News )
I imagine the rural part of Langley, with its low population density compared to some of the more crowded urban areas closer to Vancouver, made this a low-priority region for BC Hydro. We were probably among the last to have power restored.
Unfortunately for us, we depended on electricity for water (pumped from a well), cooking, and heating. Having no power for a few days at a stretch was more than a minor inconvenience.
Did Victoria / Vancouver Island escape that storm?
-Gnobuddy
Pretty sure the OP wasn't talking about outages caused by storms, at least not several per day. That doesn't happen here. We do expect to have the occasional outage during a storm, and prepare accordingly.
jeff
jeff
Several outages per day is usually an indication of a very overloaded electricity grid - not enough energy generation to match demand. Quite likely it's a matter of economics and/or lack of planning at a high level (government), and not due to mass incompetence by employees of the electric utility company.
We certainly don't experience several outages per day here in BC. But it's also true that I have experienced more severe outages (as in, lasting several hours to several days) in two years in BC than I had in twenty years in California. There's a lot more severe weather here, so once again, it's not down to anyone's lack of competence. Just what some people call "acts of God", or the vagaries of Mother Nature, if you prefer.
-Gnobuddy
We certainly don't experience several outages per day here in BC. But it's also true that I have experienced more severe outages (as in, lasting several hours to several days) in two years in BC than I had in twenty years in California. There's a lot more severe weather here, so once again, it's not down to anyone's lack of competence. Just what some people call "acts of God", or the vagaries of Mother Nature, if you prefer.
-Gnobuddy
... the biggest subsidies of all go to nuclear, gas generation gets pretty big subsidies too. It's all something of a racket.
On at least one year recently one of the big 6 PESs in the UK made more money from windfarms in compensation payments for shutting them down (to not overload the grid) than for power generated...
Cleveland Electric Illuminating $0.069/kWh for transmission and taxes, plus $0.068/kWh for fuel from First Energy.
We had such an event occur in US and Canada a few years back August 2003 -- it started with a small failure and led to power outages across the Michigan, Ohio, PA, NY, NJ and Ontario. 50 million people lost their power.
The Blackout That Exposed the Flaws in the Grid - The New York Times
That´s EXACTLY what happened here in Argentina.
Electrical generation system was getting inadequate in the 80´s, so it was fully privatized in the 90´s, under the promise that private new owners would upgrade the system and double or triple power generation capability.
Fact is that they didn´t invest a cent, plus they didn´t even properly *maintain* the aging equipment they received , all they did was redecorate the offices, hire some sharply dressed hot chicks as interface with the public and collect bills ... period.
From 2002 on the populist government subsidized the bills (with "colour photocopy" money) but nothing was invested either.
We had to borrow electricity from neighbouring Brazil to avoid total collapse during peak months.
That users payed 1 or 2 cent a kWh didn´t exactly help.
Today we have 500% to 2000% price increases , which brought them to half the international price, and I guess is the origin of Osvaldo´s question.
Government Engineers , (which I trust, I have seen "the numbers"), state that it will take at least 5 years to build and start significative new plants and upgrades to get a reasonable system again.
It will be a dark time , because former Government which left this mess happen is agressively fighting the new President based on this "Tarifazo" (utility bills attack on people), court appointed by them backs their claims and tells people not to pay , people who just see their monthly bills quintuplicate agree ... not so sure how Government will be able to carry on its 5 year improvement plan.
We *should* build a lot of Nuclear plants, because we are running out of oil and gas, while we have HUGE Uranium reserves, but greenpeace and such will fight tooth and nail against that.
We have very rough 5 years ahead. 🙁
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Your probably familiar with these:
Dynamic Demand
G. B. National Grid status
Looking a bit slow just this minute.
Wow, France is using a lot more electricity than the U.K. Is that because they are selling it to neighbors?
EDIT: Seems the meter for France excludes exports. Hmmm.
EDIT: Seems the meter for France excludes exports. Hmmm.
Those are new ones on me Karl, thanks. I tend to get more involved in the nuts and bolts of some of the systems that support this.
France is the largest exporter of power in Europe. They manage to do this because of many nuclear power plants and the inter coupled high voltage grid between European countries. Knowing the real numbers makes one frown at "green energy" and the thousands of low efficiency windmills hat litter the European landscape. The countries that have invested in generating power have a quite good position in Europa where nuclear energy generally is phased out after the Fukushima disaster (despite high power demand).
Total production is 541 TWh/annum !!!! The Électricité de France (EDF) is owned for 85% by the state. Strangely we are told that EU rules forbid this and here state owned power companies were sold to foreign companies 🙂 IMHO selling power companies that are crucial and of national interest to foreign companies is not a wise thing to do but we'll see what happens in the future. I expect them to sell the power companies back to the state when renewal of circuits has been delayed long enough and the pockets of stock holders are filled. Globalisation at its finest hour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
Regarding their own power usage: I think/guess France does not use natural gas as much as the other countries so heating is done mostly electrically. Edit: just read in the link I gave myself that this assumption is right, power demand is high because of electrical heating. One degree Celsius drop in outside temp makes for an extra needed 2.3 GW of power.....
Total production is 541 TWh/annum !!!! The Électricité de France (EDF) is owned for 85% by the state. Strangely we are told that EU rules forbid this and here state owned power companies were sold to foreign companies 🙂 IMHO selling power companies that are crucial and of national interest to foreign companies is not a wise thing to do but we'll see what happens in the future. I expect them to sell the power companies back to the state when renewal of circuits has been delayed long enough and the pockets of stock holders are filled. Globalisation at its finest hour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
Regarding their own power usage: I think/guess France does not use natural gas as much as the other countries so heating is done mostly electrically. Edit: just read in the link I gave myself that this assumption is right, power demand is high because of electrical heating. One degree Celsius drop in outside temp makes for an extra needed 2.3 GW of power.....
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It's getting very close to guidelines on political comments so I'll try to stay factual but here's the simplified legal rundown.
What the EU rules imposed was liberalization coupled to a forced separation between the network provider and the electricity producer. In other terms, it means that the operator of the network (a natural monopoly) must allow similar access with similar prices to anyone willing to use it to sell eletricity (unless there are strong technical reasons).
What the EU rules didn't impose was privatization: selling either or both the network provider and the electricity producer. We could have (and actually have) a situation where state owned and privately owned energy producers compete to sell electricity.
Still, in many cases, governments in Europe used the separation of the historical provider (that usually provided both the network and produced the electricity) to create new entities that could be sold (in part or fully). Short term cash cows...
edit: you probably knew that. Just clarifying for our overseas friends.
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North Coastal Maine USA.
Paying $0.16-$0.17 per KWH. Residential. In the bookkeeping, it appears to be half Generation and half Delivery.
This is Total Bill divided by KWH. The listed $/KWH is lower, in two parts, plus a meter fee, and taxes.
The bulk of the power is natural gas boilers, then coal (being retired). Peaking is done with hydro (Ellsworth Dam gushes when power is short) and oil fired turbines (jet engines on trailers with an oil tank). I think Nuclear counts for 2%. Solar power on the utility wires is very small. We catch a lot of wind power but maybe 2% of total demand. We probably burn that power here but sell "credits" to bigger states to offset their dirty power.
We do have a choice of "Generation" suppliers. I can buy Pretty Green, Mostly Wind, or Benefits Veterans power plans, as well as just plain brokers who promise to dicker a best price. I know the "Green" plans do not only buy "green energy", some of the brokers have posted great starter prices and then raised them 6 months later. The State has a plan, which you get by default, and has so far given a stedy good price. Have not seen a plan from our supermarket.
Quebec is a shopping-trip away but they aren't eager to sell us juice.
Folks in Maine whine about this price. 9 years ago in NJ I was paying $0.15-$0.16, in an area which should have been lower costs (dense population and large demand). So I'm not complaining about a penny more over much longer wires and smaller boilers.
Power stays up for many months at a time. Had a couple 1-hour outages when cars hit poles. Twice in 7 years we've had 30-hour outages after ice/wind storms. (You say "underground" but, like Dave's place, there's no underground in rocky Maine.) I did finally buy a generator, and it works (no significant outage since I bought it!).
I do recall being shocked by prices in Tennessee Valley and in Oregon. TVA has significant water, also coal, and a long history of government grants to extend electric distribution. Oregon similar. I think in both areas any large rise of electric cost would cause political outrage.
For Reference--- I read old journals. The going rate 1900-1910 seems to have been $0.07-$0.15/KWH. Yes, same as today, even though wages are WAY higher now! OTOH, you might have three 40W lights total, many homes metered on a 5-Amp meter whereas I have "100A service" and can peak over 40A.
> power meter ... recent ones also have cell phone capabilities so the power company can check your used power without visiting you.
I don't know how they do it, I'm a mile out in the woods with poor cell coverage, but only -once- in 7 years has a meter-reader come to my pole. Yet I can (before they "improved" the site) go on-line and read yesterday's power use. It's wireless (or RF over wires) somehow. And they do seem to know "power is out all over" pretty quick.
> if you can generate your own energy, and the excess, to be returned to the electricity company.
Used to be illegal. Then there was a sweet deal to sell-back your power AT RETAIL PRICE! This was to encourage solar co-generation development. The tariff had an escape clause: when cogeneration reached XX% of the total, the utility company would start buying-back at more WHOLESALE rates. This clause was recently triggered. (I see Tony in Aus also got hit.) Many recent solar projects are upset about losing the savings they had expected to subsidize their large expenses. (Also windmills, but these really do not make sense here except tops of mountains, where line-costs prohibit small projects.)
> That would be up to the local utility.
Generally some "Regulator" posts the rules.
Granted, most regulators are friendlier with power barons than with mere consumers, so their fairness may be token.
> how do you synchronize your generation in frequency and phase with the grid?
A "dumb" alternator, spun to near sync RPM and field brought up slowly, WILL fall into sync with a *larger* alternator or power grid.
Inverters must have some "sensing". I assume power company RULES require you have appropriate interconnect gear. While a half-KW windmill would just burn itself, a 25KW mill thrown suddenly in high wind without sync would strain the pole transformer and maybe knock-out your neighbors. I think few co-generation projects have the potential for a BANG!! like happens amongst utility generators.
And the wave certainly must be sine-like! The edges of squares do not travel well over miles of wire, burn-up your neighbors' gear, make pole transformers buzz bad, etc.
You will probably find that you have to buy (not DIY) an Approved power interface before the utility will allow back-feed.
Paying $0.16-$0.17 per KWH. Residential. In the bookkeeping, it appears to be half Generation and half Delivery.
This is Total Bill divided by KWH. The listed $/KWH is lower, in two parts, plus a meter fee, and taxes.
The bulk of the power is natural gas boilers, then coal (being retired). Peaking is done with hydro (Ellsworth Dam gushes when power is short) and oil fired turbines (jet engines on trailers with an oil tank). I think Nuclear counts for 2%. Solar power on the utility wires is very small. We catch a lot of wind power but maybe 2% of total demand. We probably burn that power here but sell "credits" to bigger states to offset their dirty power.
We do have a choice of "Generation" suppliers. I can buy Pretty Green, Mostly Wind, or Benefits Veterans power plans, as well as just plain brokers who promise to dicker a best price. I know the "Green" plans do not only buy "green energy", some of the brokers have posted great starter prices and then raised them 6 months later. The State has a plan, which you get by default, and has so far given a stedy good price. Have not seen a plan from our supermarket.
Quebec is a shopping-trip away but they aren't eager to sell us juice.
Folks in Maine whine about this price. 9 years ago in NJ I was paying $0.15-$0.16, in an area which should have been lower costs (dense population and large demand). So I'm not complaining about a penny more over much longer wires and smaller boilers.
Power stays up for many months at a time. Had a couple 1-hour outages when cars hit poles. Twice in 7 years we've had 30-hour outages after ice/wind storms. (You say "underground" but, like Dave's place, there's no underground in rocky Maine.) I did finally buy a generator, and it works (no significant outage since I bought it!).
I do recall being shocked by prices in Tennessee Valley and in Oregon. TVA has significant water, also coal, and a long history of government grants to extend electric distribution. Oregon similar. I think in both areas any large rise of electric cost would cause political outrage.
For Reference--- I read old journals. The going rate 1900-1910 seems to have been $0.07-$0.15/KWH. Yes, same as today, even though wages are WAY higher now! OTOH, you might have three 40W lights total, many homes metered on a 5-Amp meter whereas I have "100A service" and can peak over 40A.
> power meter ... recent ones also have cell phone capabilities so the power company can check your used power without visiting you.
I don't know how they do it, I'm a mile out in the woods with poor cell coverage, but only -once- in 7 years has a meter-reader come to my pole. Yet I can (before they "improved" the site) go on-line and read yesterday's power use. It's wireless (or RF over wires) somehow. And they do seem to know "power is out all over" pretty quick.
> if you can generate your own energy, and the excess, to be returned to the electricity company.
Used to be illegal. Then there was a sweet deal to sell-back your power AT RETAIL PRICE! This was to encourage solar co-generation development. The tariff had an escape clause: when cogeneration reached XX% of the total, the utility company would start buying-back at more WHOLESALE rates. This clause was recently triggered. (I see Tony in Aus also got hit.) Many recent solar projects are upset about losing the savings they had expected to subsidize their large expenses. (Also windmills, but these really do not make sense here except tops of mountains, where line-costs prohibit small projects.)
> That would be up to the local utility.
Generally some "Regulator" posts the rules.
Granted, most regulators are friendlier with power barons than with mere consumers, so their fairness may be token.
> how do you synchronize your generation in frequency and phase with the grid?
A "dumb" alternator, spun to near sync RPM and field brought up slowly, WILL fall into sync with a *larger* alternator or power grid.
Inverters must have some "sensing". I assume power company RULES require you have appropriate interconnect gear. While a half-KW windmill would just burn itself, a 25KW mill thrown suddenly in high wind without sync would strain the pole transformer and maybe knock-out your neighbors. I think few co-generation projects have the potential for a BANG!! like happens amongst utility generators.
And the wave certainly must be sine-like! The edges of squares do not travel well over miles of wire, burn-up your neighbors' gear, make pole transformers buzz bad, etc.
You will probably find that you have to buy (not DIY) an Approved power interface before the utility will allow back-feed.
> if you can generate your own energy, and the excess, to be returned to the electricity company.
Here is the rules I must follow. There is surely something super-similar from your electric company. Sometimes on the website.
This particular page only lists the technical hurdles and fees. It does not say how much you may be paid. And this year, that question is very much in the air, as we transition from small retail trade-off to larger total KWH which requires coordination.
As a thought-provoker: there will be times demand is down, the utility boilers are idling on stored heat, delivering power under $0.01/KWH. Meanwhile your solar array is gushing electrons. What is the proper price for your juice? Certainly not retail $0.15/KWH, when they have ample at $0.01/KWH. OTOH on a very hot day, everybody on A/C, the utility might be glad to pay $0.15/KWH because it beats buying and transporting power from two states away, or investing in big boilers that only run a week a year.
The extreme case is California. They imposed a low-low wholesale price, but with authority to pay more when energy was short. Surprise! A lot of generators had to be taken off-line for cleaning etc. When peaks happened, OH! We are short! We'll have to fire-up some other less-economic generators to cover it, and we won't do that without a bonus! This is legitimate economics, though California's rules practically encourage playing games with the system.
So at some point the network managers will be posting to your solar/wind system how much they are paying At The Moment for extra energy. Since you won't monitor this 24/7, you'll tell your controller what price to accept. Maybe you will sell at "any" non-negative price. (Yes, negative prices happen.) But for a small dam, at low prices you should hold-back the water and store it, hoping for a better price later.
Here is the rules I must follow. There is surely something super-similar from your electric company. Sometimes on the website.
This particular page only lists the technical hurdles and fees. It does not say how much you may be paid. And this year, that question is very much in the air, as we transition from small retail trade-off to larger total KWH which requires coordination.
As a thought-provoker: there will be times demand is down, the utility boilers are idling on stored heat, delivering power under $0.01/KWH. Meanwhile your solar array is gushing electrons. What is the proper price for your juice? Certainly not retail $0.15/KWH, when they have ample at $0.01/KWH. OTOH on a very hot day, everybody on A/C, the utility might be glad to pay $0.15/KWH because it beats buying and transporting power from two states away, or investing in big boilers that only run a week a year.
The extreme case is California. They imposed a low-low wholesale price, but with authority to pay more when energy was short. Surprise! A lot of generators had to be taken off-line for cleaning etc. When peaks happened, OH! We are short! We'll have to fire-up some other less-economic generators to cover it, and we won't do that without a bonus! This is legitimate economics, though California's rules practically encourage playing games with the system.
So at some point the network managers will be posting to your solar/wind system how much they are paying At The Moment for extra energy. Since you won't monitor this 24/7, you'll tell your controller what price to accept. Maybe you will sell at "any" non-negative price. (Yes, negative prices happen.) But for a small dam, at low prices you should hold-back the water and store it, hoping for a better price later.
The whole market thing is exceedingly complex. UK prices vary from £500/MWh to about -£50/MWh at extremes, whilst usually hovvering between £30 and £70. The trading system is amazingly complex but somehow works. About 5 years ago people were seriously looking at investing in huge lithium battery farms to take the free electricity and provide it back when prices were highest. Oddly this has turned out more difficult that expected.
Dinorwig in scotland is a pumped storage hydroscheme that does manage to play this game well. It's an impressive bit of engineering, as can go from 0 to 1800MW production in 16 seconds, which is handy when everyone puts the kettle on at the end of a popular TV program.
I've been doing some work around smart grid on and off over the last 10 years. Some marvellously daft ideas have been floated by the web2.0 crowd.
P.S. I was living in USA winter of 1997 and the footage of power pylons buckling due to ice storms was a real eye opener for someone from a damp little island.
Dinorwig in scotland is a pumped storage hydroscheme that does manage to play this game well. It's an impressive bit of engineering, as can go from 0 to 1800MW production in 16 seconds, which is handy when everyone puts the kettle on at the end of a popular TV program.
I've been doing some work around smart grid on and off over the last 10 years. Some marvellously daft ideas have been floated by the web2.0 crowd.
P.S. I was living in USA winter of 1997 and the footage of power pylons buckling due to ice storms was a real eye opener for someone from a damp little island.
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