Ahem - Temple City Kazoo Orchestra | Kazooed on Classics - YouTube . I hope the speakers in question didn't sound quite that bad...
I've seen and heard the Kronos with the designer demo'ing it at a private showing.
Its real pretty looking. Sounds really nice, but that extra platter to counteract vibration is a bit much. It was demo'ed with a $9000.00 cartridge. The designer said the cartridge is everything, so is the arm. He said the table brings out the real potential of the cart and arm.
Maybe so.
I don't have much of an opinion on what people charge for their gear, but as far as TTs go, seems that to make them look a certain way or solve a problem, they invent solutions that create new problem, causing a loop.
They said 16 were bought at the CES or Rocky Mountain show prior to the demo. I find it hard to believe, but anything is possible.
I know some that have bought at this price point and higher and one thing was true for all of them: they all listened to more than a few tables before buying.
If people are buying it, they must believe they made the best choice for themselves.
Jut my opinion.
Its real pretty looking. Sounds really nice, but that extra platter to counteract vibration is a bit much. It was demo'ed with a $9000.00 cartridge. The designer said the cartridge is everything, so is the arm. He said the table brings out the real potential of the cart and arm.
Maybe so.
I don't have much of an opinion on what people charge for their gear, but as far as TTs go, seems that to make them look a certain way or solve a problem, they invent solutions that create new problem, causing a loop.
They said 16 were bought at the CES or Rocky Mountain show prior to the demo. I find it hard to believe, but anything is possible.
I know some that have bought at this price point and higher and one thing was true for all of them: they all listened to more than a few tables before buying.
If people are buying it, they must believe they made the best choice for themselves.
Jut my opinion.
Yeah don't be surprised he sells all these units.
I was talking to an audio dealer months ago and he was telling me that for instance sinus Fabre made a limited edition $100K speaker and they. Sold all the units which I believe they made 100 before even finishing production.
I think the Kronos looks amazing and also got suer rave reviews....don't know why here we are questioning the quality of this TT.
I was talking to an audio dealer months ago and he was telling me that for instance sinus Fabre made a limited edition $100K speaker and they. Sold all the units which I believe they made 100 before even finishing production.
I think the Kronos looks amazing and also got suer rave reviews....don't know why here we are questioning the quality of this TT.
That's very fancy looking. Wonder just how good it really is? I've always felt the Verdier turntable is about as good as it gets. It's in the $8000 range, I think.
The idea of reducing a torsional effect from the platform sounds wonderful at the expense of removing the gyro effect that brings some stability from external vibrations.
Adding another counter rotating bearing and platter has removed this gyro benefit and now the plinth sees a central mass only and makes the TT more prone to external movement since the spinning mass is canceled by its additional platter.
You take onestep forward and one step back.
I have heard this table demonstrated and heard no ill effect however. The speakers used had a tippedup treble balance that unbalanced the presentation but sounded quiet and stable regardless.
With so many similiar TTs a new idea sometimes sells itself with no sonic ills.
Regards
David
Adding another counter rotating bearing and platter has removed this gyro benefit and now the plinth sees a central mass only and makes the TT more prone to external movement since the spinning mass is canceled by its additional platter.
You take onestep forward and one step back.
I have heard this table demonstrated and heard no ill effect however. The speakers used had a tippedup treble balance that unbalanced the presentation but sounded quiet and stable regardless.
With so many similiar TTs a new idea sometimes sells itself with no sonic ills.
Regards
David
What David says above sums up my feelings exactly, it fixes a problem that only exists conceptually and in doing so adds only costs and complexity to what would otherwise be a more reasonably priced design.
The designer is no idiot, he knows that he needs a technical or visual gimmick to make a mark in today's hifi market so he has designed a table with both. Had he any real interest in fixing the 'conceptual problem' that this design addresses one would think he would at least have some measurements and some maths to show his working out and the improvements he has achieved. That he displays neither of these should tell us all we need to know about the validity of this dual deck and what it achieves.
That said, it sounded very good when I heard it on demo in the UK, with the Kazoo speakers, the cardboard Kazoo effect was very dependant on where you sat in the room. (If you could see the speakers- then you could hear the marching band at work... ;-)
The designer is no idiot, he knows that he needs a technical or visual gimmick to make a mark in today's hifi market so he has designed a table with both. Had he any real interest in fixing the 'conceptual problem' that this design addresses one would think he would at least have some measurements and some maths to show his working out and the improvements he has achieved. That he displays neither of these should tell us all we need to know about the validity of this dual deck and what it achieves.
That said, it sounded very good when I heard it on demo in the UK, with the Kazoo speakers, the cardboard Kazoo effect was very dependant on where you sat in the room. (If you could see the speakers- then you could hear the marching band at work... ;-)
I'm planning on my next build, with a very tight parts selection. Are there any recommendation for the Sk170's, any preferred grade and tolerance advice?
May i ask the obvious question: how does it sound with the second motor off? It is the only demo worth performing to illustrate it's raison d'etre.
Very good question !
I think impossible to get an answer, I can't imagine the seller of that turtable doing the experiment.
I think impossible to get an answer, I can't imagine the seller of that turtable doing the experiment.
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Good point. Do we accept that the speed from a belt drive deck is constant under all conditions? If not, the chassis must twist/oscillate to some degree under varying loads. I think this is what the designer is trying to eliminate. However, I'm not sure that he hasn't introduced a rocking couple, with the platters so far apart.
For perfection of this concept, the lower platter should be playing the same record as the upper platter at the same time. This platter would then need to be upside down.
The Kronos may well sound great because it is mostly really well made and designed, with a concept some see as mistaken, that does not detract from the sound. For reference I run a Lenco 88 with Mission 774 arm.
Cheers Steve
Had a chance to chat with AJ Conti of Basis turntables on this subject about Varying loads created by the stylus and such at our Newport audio show this weekend in Calif.
He mentioned that he could place a second tonearm on his lower cost 4 pound platter and not see any significant wow&flutter variations with its introduction ( CBS test record 3150khz )
Since test instruments are devoid of emotion, you might reconsider just what the table mentioned is all about ?
Regards
David
He mentioned that he could place a second tonearm on his lower cost 4 pound platter and not see any significant wow&flutter variations with its introduction ( CBS test record 3150khz )
Since test instruments are devoid of emotion, you might reconsider just what the table mentioned is all about ?
Regards
David
We did that test a while back, just stick a 7" single on top of any 350hz reference track and play them back at the same time with two arms. It makes no difference at all on any decent deck, if you have a high mas platter or a high viscous friction bearing it makes even less than no difference.... ;-)
I take your point, but piano music sounds less smeared on my Lenco 88 than on my Thorens t150. I ascribe this to less slowing under dynamic conditions.
Different designers see different aspects of ttable design and replay as significant. I am not cynical, and do not immediately detect a desire to con the public. If these guys want to rob us, they could become bankers. It's less work and the hours are better.
Cheers Steve
It's got nothing to do with dynamic conditions, vis a vis the motor, and everything to do with a suspended deck having worse speed stability due to the lack of a fixed geometry between motor and bearing, than a none suspended deck. Try sellotaping your armboard to the edge of the plinth at either corner to stop it moving and see how much better your speed stability gets.
Suspended decks are just broken, at least those without damping in the suspension.
Suspended decks are just broken, at least those without damping in the suspension.
double deckers
It would be interesting to compare the Kronos with the Clearaudio Master Innovation turntable. Both are and similarly priced ($30K+) and are dual-platter designs. But the CMI uses the bottom platter to magnetically drive the upper platter. Different concept, of course. The CMI now has two platters rotating the same direction, does that make it twice bad?
Neither design is elegant . . . . . . but they're fun to look at! 😀
It would be interesting to compare the Kronos with the Clearaudio Master Innovation turntable. Both are and similarly priced ($30K+) and are dual-platter designs. But the CMI uses the bottom platter to magnetically drive the upper platter. Different concept, of course. The CMI now has two platters rotating the same direction, does that make it twice bad?
Neither design is elegant . . . . . . but they're fun to look at! 😀
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If I recall correctly... 47 Labs was the first to implement this concept...
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If you go back even earlier, it was a direct drive design by Sansui using the counter rotation concept to combat vibration. In their XP-99 and XR-Q7 models, they used a dual motor design called the "Silent Synchrotor System" with a bottom motor rotation the opposite direction.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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