Simple facts. People start their companies having in mind to make profits. You say you'd like to work for Scan Speak. Would that be pro bono, maybe so. You think that manufacturers don't lie to us? I have a copy of an interview where an owner of two companies, known hifi brands, explicitly says about polypropylen membranes what you're basically saying. Coincidence or convenient pragmatics? Does that mean all the previous models of all their polyprop speakers will be taken back from customers with a financial compensation? I don't think so. I won't attach that article here for I'd be violating forum rules.
Healthy logic. Thinking and reading about some area of interest will get you there.
You should try it before conducting witch-hunt and corrupting hobbyist mind relaxing meka with your bad attitude.
You've suggested a guy to buy Dynaudio product. This is not Buy it yourself forum but Do it yourself. But it never crossed my mind to attack you as part of sales division for Dynaudio. But you on the other hand are capable of labelling all over the place.
I suggested that he should listen to it first and you suddenly have problem with that. I gave explanation why i don't like the sound of it but reminding that there are people that like that sound, but you don't like that either. If you can't handle different oppinion then you should not be on forums.
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@Zvu: Lojzek is right about cone materials. It has been a marketing hype that poly, which by the way comes in many subtypes, is all bad and sounds dead.
Nonsense: simply look at AudioTeknology. Everybody raves about its sonic properties. The usual excuse is, that it uses very special polypropylene (whatever that may be.)
Hi-End Hifi is all about perceptions. Another example: what about the wonderful ATC 75 mm dome @700+ € a piece everybody also raves about ? A simple piece of Kurt Muller coated cloth, with an optimized pro-audio motor, the moving assembly and general design basically identical to a somewhat smaller design made 40+years ago: the ITT/SEL 50mm dome midrange.
There is no magic sauce, although we would like to convince ourselves there is.
Good Luck,
Eelco
Nonsense: simply look at AudioTeknology. Everybody raves about its sonic properties. The usual excuse is, that it uses very special polypropylene (whatever that may be.)
Hi-End Hifi is all about perceptions. Another example: what about the wonderful ATC 75 mm dome @700+ € a piece everybody also raves about ? A simple piece of Kurt Muller coated cloth, with an optimized pro-audio motor, the moving assembly and general design basically identical to a somewhat smaller design made 40+years ago: the ITT/SEL 50mm dome midrange.
There is no magic sauce, although we would like to convince ourselves there is.
Good Luck,
Eelco
@Boden:
If i never heard any loudspeaker playing and having plastic cone, i might have believe you, but you are telling me stuff about something that i heard. With respect to your comment - why do you think your oppinion is more relevant to me than my own experience ?
Regarding membrane materials, please read the post 20 - first part of my reply to Lojzeks claims. I'm very sorry if you think that there is no difference in sound in cone materials. As i said, we would all be listening to plastic if you were right because it is easiest to make plastic cone once you have the mold. Xover is also quite easy to make because of controlled roll-off. But to me it doesn't sound right. Why is that so hard to believe ? Lots of us would never listen to plastic membranes because the difference is obvious.
It flexes and makes controlled roll-off but looses some details in the process. That is my experience, and i would allow for everybody to make their own. That is why i advised the OP to go and listen to some Dynaudio first - before he buys it. Same goes for Illumina.
I did look at AudioTechnology drivers. Never heard them though but would very much like to. That is why i didn't speak of AudioTechnology drivers sounding dead. I was talking about Dynaudio sounding dead which i listened many times and lived with couple of models for quite some time. I wrote once on this forum that only Dynaudio midwoofer that sounded ok to me was 22w75 but they stopped making it long time ago. Guess what type of cone did it have ? Paper. I didn't know that. I listened and realised that it sounds good to me. When surrounds fell apart i found out that it was paper.
What does dome midrange has to do with this ? I also don't understand the correlation od ATC 75mm with ITT 50mm.
I'm not convincing myself into anything and not trying to convince anybody into anything here. I just added my experience with loudspeakers suggested for purchase that i listened before. As for me, i know my choice of preference and that makes it easier for me to choose drivers that i'll be working with.
Cheers
If i never heard any loudspeaker playing and having plastic cone, i might have believe you, but you are telling me stuff about something that i heard. With respect to your comment - why do you think your oppinion is more relevant to me than my own experience ?
Regarding membrane materials, please read the post 20 - first part of my reply to Lojzeks claims. I'm very sorry if you think that there is no difference in sound in cone materials. As i said, we would all be listening to plastic if you were right because it is easiest to make plastic cone once you have the mold. Xover is also quite easy to make because of controlled roll-off. But to me it doesn't sound right. Why is that so hard to believe ? Lots of us would never listen to plastic membranes because the difference is obvious.
It flexes and makes controlled roll-off but looses some details in the process. That is my experience, and i would allow for everybody to make their own. That is why i advised the OP to go and listen to some Dynaudio first - before he buys it. Same goes for Illumina.
I did look at AudioTechnology drivers. Never heard them though but would very much like to. That is why i didn't speak of AudioTechnology drivers sounding dead. I was talking about Dynaudio sounding dead which i listened many times and lived with couple of models for quite some time. I wrote once on this forum that only Dynaudio midwoofer that sounded ok to me was 22w75 but they stopped making it long time ago. Guess what type of cone did it have ? Paper. I didn't know that. I listened and realised that it sounds good to me. When surrounds fell apart i found out that it was paper.
What does dome midrange has to do with this ? I also don't understand the correlation od ATC 75mm with ITT 50mm.
I'm not convincing myself into anything and not trying to convince anybody into anything here. I just added my experience with loudspeakers suggested for purchase that i listened before. As for me, i know my choice of preference and that makes it easier for me to choose drivers that i'll be working with.
Cheers
It is all in the crossover design. Design the x/o such that two identically sized e.g. midwoofers (same Sd) are having exactly the same acoustic response and they will sound identical if the levels are carefully matched. Whether you like it or not, this by and large is the case.
Since 1993 I have literally tested hundreds of drivers, and can tell you the magic differences disappear once the acoustic targets are identical. This, however, is hard to achieve because you need very good optimizing software to get identical acoustic - not electric!- output of different drivers.
Look here for a scientific basis for my position. http://www.extra.research.philips.com/hera/people/aarts/RMA_papers/aar89.pdf
regards,
Eelco
Since 1993 I have literally tested hundreds of drivers, and can tell you the magic differences disappear once the acoustic targets are identical. This, however, is hard to achieve because you need very good optimizing software to get identical acoustic - not electric!- output of different drivers.
Look here for a scientific basis for my position. http://www.extra.research.philips.com/hera/people/aarts/RMA_papers/aar89.pdf
regards,
Eelco
Why do you presume that i didn't - and by the way, it was with Dynaudio midwofers 🙂
Excuse me for not taking your word on it. You should have measurements and data from all those serious testing so please post them here.
Like i said, i tried it and very recently with dsp ofc.
🙂 Have you even read the research from your link ? You are joking right 🙂
Since the OP has more than enough data for him to carry on with his search for good sound, i'll finish with this tilting at windmills.
Cheers
Yes, got more than I bargained for here, but thanks all for the info. This is interesting discussion/debate!
I say and have experienced different timbre from different driver materials based on crossover points and distortion signature which are the telling difference between paper, plastic and metals. My favorites have highish 2nd order in the 800-2khz region but really low 3rd and 5th. Just my personal taste......yours may vary. Ribbon tweeters are my favorite HF devices as well.
Indeed it is. It's so easy to get the wrong picture of how things work in reality and the fact that people usually don't have the will, time and funds to explore in a more scientific way, makes it all harder to get to the bottom of the truth. What does an average audiophile do? First he reads a lot of magazines, talks to other more experienced audiohiles, let's himself fall under their influence and then goes listening. At that point, his brains are already preprogrammed to arrive at the same conclusion and the most logical thing happens, he acknowledges the findings of his buddies. Or, otherwise put, placebo really works. Medical scientists know that alright. This is not so important in hifi business because people don't usually die from getting false information. They simply exchange one piece of equipment for another.
That polypropylene material sounds dull is a ridicilous claim, especially the Dynaudio polyprop! The dullness is easily achieved by cutting off, first the tweeter from the setup, then the midrange and ultimately the woofer. The farther you go, the duller it gets. A typical example of a dull sounding speaker is a fullranger with an early cut off at higher frequencies.
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