Very funny point! Sorry guy, I dont believe in ears distortion, I never feel it! I only experience pain in the ears from now, never distortion...Maybe nobody was the same! The only thing I can add to this funny forum was that, for me, when it's loud and clean, you can listen music for long time without be tired of it, and when you ''try'' to speak to someone near you and no sound come out of your mouth, even if you yeld! That's clean and powerfull sound system for me. When after 4 minute you whant to go out of a place, that's because it was loud and full distortion. When you can ear it all night long, that's good!
If some of you come to Montreal, I will show you some installation I have made for night club and rave, you will not believe how it could be loud and pleasant to listen....
Continue guy!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
If some of you come to Montreal, I will show you some installation I have made for night club and rave, you will not believe how it could be loud and pleasant to listen....
Continue guy!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
Its funny how when you turn volume down to normal after playing very loud, you suddenly cant hear anything 
Chris,
That's quite a system.
"I don't mind helping you, I do mind helping super special super tweakers. "
None of my business I guess, but what does this mean?
Thanks
That's quite a system.
"I don't mind helping you, I do mind helping super special super tweakers. "
None of my business I guess, but what does this mean?
Thanks
Re: Re: I don't mean to overpost but now I'm mad!
Yep, here the same. MP3's are mostly horrible to listen to and for testing and modding no good. Lossless ripped cd's are the best.
And to play the music very loud is almost a no go in highly populated areas like in subburbs or towns. The D-Class amps, UCD and Coldamps are superb music power convertors and a joy to listen to. Bad recordings will punish your ears.
lucpes said:
Yep, here the same. MP3's are mostly horrible to listen to and for testing and modding no good. Lossless ripped cd's are the best.
And to play the music very loud is almost a no go in highly populated areas like in subburbs or towns. The D-Class amps, UCD and Coldamps are superb music power convertors and a joy to listen to. Bad recordings will punish your ears.
tinitus said:
That is compression in the ear, the middle ear.
Your ears are very clever. When the volume goes up, the joints in the middle ear start to tighten. This is probably done to protect the ear. It's a form of mechanical compression and volume leveling.
When you drop the level after a long exposure to loud sounds, the ear does not relax right away, so everything will sound muffled. *There may be something going on in the inner ear as well.
This leads a bit O.T. - to the problem of hearing loss in Eskimos. When modern Eskimos go hunting on the ice, it can be VERY quiet on a still day. The ear is very relaxed. Then BANG! They shoot. The gunshot is so sudden that eh ear does not have time to compress. Repeated exposure to this causes bad hearing loss.
fredos said:
Alors Fredo, tu as des orielles en beton! 😉
No, that’s not nice to say. But your ears must be a lot stronger than most of us. In-ear distortion is pretty common; I've been able to demonstrate it to many people. It usually comes as a big surprise.
To change track a little:
Let’s talk about reference. What is your reference for good sound, or any musical sound, for that matter?
It seems to me that most people who are under 40 have very little reference to real, acoustic music. The most common reference is bad home stereo, bad car stereo and overdriven PA stacks. No wonder so many people don't know or care about good audio. To them, distortion and compression are audio.
How many of use here have had a friend listen to your very nicely balanced system only to have your buddy say "Can you turn it up? Can you make it thump?" Well, yes, I can - but it will sound awful. That is, it will sound awful to me. To the average Joe, it sounds "Awesome, Dude!"
So if your entire musical reference to sound is music played thru speakers, why wouldn't you think that is how it is supposed to sound?
I grew up listening to live acoustic music and to my fathers pretty good DIY Hi-Fi. I never had the distorted reference point. That has driven me to either not listen to recorded music, or to build a very, very good system. Anything else annoys me. Most of you here probably feel the same way.
Tu as des oreilles en beton!
Tha's strong buddy, but unfortunately that's what happens to some people.
Some are content with Wal Mart home stereo, others look for
some fidelity reproduction to emulate live music. What's the
difference? A huge world of difference I should say.
And here I am stuggling with the "best" designs of amplifiers
and speakers to reach for the best, the ultimate in fidelity.
There are a lot of differences in this world and we humans try
our best to attain our goals, different of course.
Tha's strong buddy, but unfortunately that's what happens to some people.
Some are content with Wal Mart home stereo, others look for
some fidelity reproduction to emulate live music. What's the
difference? A huge world of difference I should say.
And here I am stuggling with the "best" designs of amplifiers
and speakers to reach for the best, the ultimate in fidelity.
There are a lot of differences in this world and we humans try
our best to attain our goals, different of course.
Not me
I have had goofs try to impress me by trying to make junker systems distort by 40%. I tell them how it sounds right away and they get a little red in the face, but I just can't tolerate it.
Thanks to my speakers mostly, it "thumps" even at low volume, when I turn it up more it's a monster, I really don't have to push it beyond clean power, and don't. You don't get more thump for it, just gets ugly.
I've also, thanks to UCD, come to find myself highly annoyed with your typical commercial amp sound, too much feedback is it? Fake highs? Very annoying!
"To them, distortion and compression are audio."
Yup, it's my goal to educate them, and in a way that can't be denied🙂
Fredos' amps compress into clipping, maybe good for pro audio but... we'd bust him on that one.
fredos said:
ABout the off-topic ear distortion, I have also experienced it a while ago, forgot with what CD but it was with my own speakers. I was very surprised, if not shocked, scared, like what the hell is wrong with my ears. It was not the equipment, it was my ears being the limit to clean sound, scary.
Gertjan
I can testify as well
When I first got 'into' the DIY speaker building, I didn't own tube amps. I owned SS amps. I had a little Techniques reciever that actually sound pretty good. I used it with most of my DIY speakers. Sound fairly good. But after a, uhmm..., mishap, I had to replace that reciever with another cheap pawnshop find, this time it was a Kenwood receiver. It sounded kinda harch to me, but I started using a different, better SS amp for my projects.
But then I got out of the DIY speaker game for a few years. I recently got back into the hobby again, but now I have the SI Super T. I still have the Kenwood though. I put one of my single driver projects on the Kenwood to show one of my friends the speaker (just because it was handy). Man, but that reciever is bad. Rated at 40watts per channel, the 5.25" driver pumps like a piston at just a third volume, but the there is a remarkable lack of bass for all this action. The rest of the audio frequency is just horrible. It was embarissing. I later hooked the same speaker up to my Super T and then re-invited the guy to hear the speaker agian, we were both astonished. I can get a plenty of bass with a minimal of cone movement from the driver. Mid-bass and mid range cleared right up. And at 6 or 8 watts or whatever the little amp is rated at 4 ohms, it can play louder than the crappy Kenwood reciever without your ears 'fluttering' after the volume is turned down.
Makes me wonder what's happening inside the kenwood that it can force a driver to near physical limits with so little bass. I think most people associate rapid cone movement with massive bass content. At least I did.
When I first got 'into' the DIY speaker building, I didn't own tube amps. I owned SS amps. I had a little Techniques reciever that actually sound pretty good. I used it with most of my DIY speakers. Sound fairly good. But after a, uhmm..., mishap, I had to replace that reciever with another cheap pawnshop find, this time it was a Kenwood receiver. It sounded kinda harch to me, but I started using a different, better SS amp for my projects.
But then I got out of the DIY speaker game for a few years. I recently got back into the hobby again, but now I have the SI Super T. I still have the Kenwood though. I put one of my single driver projects on the Kenwood to show one of my friends the speaker (just because it was handy). Man, but that reciever is bad. Rated at 40watts per channel, the 5.25" driver pumps like a piston at just a third volume, but the there is a remarkable lack of bass for all this action. The rest of the audio frequency is just horrible. It was embarissing. I later hooked the same speaker up to my Super T and then re-invited the guy to hear the speaker agian, we were both astonished. I can get a plenty of bass with a minimal of cone movement from the driver. Mid-bass and mid range cleared right up. And at 6 or 8 watts or whatever the little amp is rated at 4 ohms, it can play louder than the crappy Kenwood reciever without your ears 'fluttering' after the volume is turned down.
Makes me wonder what's happening inside the kenwood that it can force a driver to near physical limits with so little bass. I think most people associate rapid cone movement with massive bass content. At least I did.
Re: I can testify as well
Interesting story. I'll have to do some amp testing to see if the same thing happens here.
Maybe it was a weak power supply in the Kenwood, or some other damping factors. Class-D is usually known for its control of the bass driver, whatever the power.
You would think, with the cones moving like that. you would have plenty of bass volume, if not quality.
3-LockBox said:
Interesting story. I'll have to do some amp testing to see if the same thing happens here.
Maybe it was a weak power supply in the Kenwood, or some other damping factors. Class-D is usually known for its control of the bass driver, whatever the power.
You would think, with the cones moving like that. you would have plenty of bass volume, if not quality.
Hi,
I don't think his old kenwood was class d. I believe that though, having experienced something similar with my old receiver.
Not sure on the specifics of the cause, damping factor may play a roll, regardless, it could be made to throw the woofer out like crazy, but you could nearly count the oscillations, did not sound like bass at all, just kind of a broken up woosh/rumble... wumble 🙂
The UCD's dont' seem to throw it out like that at all, the woofer doesnt' get to escape its total control. You might say the difference is an audible one.
Cheers
I don't think his old kenwood was class d. I believe that though, having experienced something similar with my old receiver.
Not sure on the specifics of the cause, damping factor may play a roll, regardless, it could be made to throw the woofer out like crazy, but you could nearly count the oscillations, did not sound like bass at all, just kind of a broken up woosh/rumble... wumble 🙂
The UCD's dont' seem to throw it out like that at all, the woofer doesnt' get to escape its total control. You might say the difference is an audible one.
Cheers
jmateus said:
Well, I was just joking with Fredo, hope he didn't take it wrong.
Maybe strong ears are good thing.
I knew classd4sure would jump in here. I don't know your system, but if it does what you claim, that's great. And pretty rare. I've heard and owened lots of "Audiophile" systems that sound sweet at low volumes, but can't really produce the true levels of live music. And the systems that can reach that SPL, usually sound bad doing it.
There is cetainly a different emotional impact that comes with healthy SPL. Getting those SPL clean has been hard to do, in the past. But it seems that we are getting there.
Still, given the choice between loud and good, I'll take good. Both together is fun.
Yes Sir, it sure is. Nothing like feeling it. It's also great for the home theater experience, voices aren't "loud" yet the LFE is earth moving, sucks ya right into the experience.
Re: I can testify as well
Were your speakers of the vented variety? The driver will unload below the tuning frequency of the port and you see a lot of cone excursion but hear practically no bass.
It is amazing how loud 8W of clean power can sound with the right speakers. It can really shift your paradigm of 'hi-fi' equipment.
My SPL threshold of pain is right above where I start to feel the music so I can't listen to anything that loud for too long...
When I worked at Clair Brothers Audio (you should know that name Pano) the amp tester guy had a sensitive 15" speaker to test the amps with and it was always incredibly loud in the shop. I had to go outside whenever he was testing because it gave me a headache. I told him to get another driver and put the cones face together and wire them out of phase so it wasn't nearly as loud but he didn't understand how that would work... sigh.
3-LockBox said:Makes me wonder what's happening inside the kenwood that it can force a driver to near physical limits with so little bass. I think most people associate rapid cone movement with massive bass content. At least I did.
Were your speakers of the vented variety? The driver will unload below the tuning frequency of the port and you see a lot of cone excursion but hear practically no bass.
It is amazing how loud 8W of clean power can sound with the right speakers. It can really shift your paradigm of 'hi-fi' equipment.
My SPL threshold of pain is right above where I start to feel the music so I can't listen to anything that loud for too long...
When I worked at Clair Brothers Audio (you should know that name Pano) the amp tester guy had a sensitive 15" speaker to test the amps with and it was always incredibly loud in the shop. I had to go outside whenever he was testing because it gave me a headache. I told him to get another driver and put the cones face together and wire them out of phase so it wasn't nearly as loud but he didn't understand how that would work... sigh.
classd4sure said:
Sorry, my post wasn't clear at all.
I meant that his Super-T is class-d, so it might have better control of the driver than the Kenwood.
But Brain may be on to something too. Measured bass and subjective bass are often at odds. It may be that to get the felling he likes with the Kenwood he has to turnit up way too loud. But it never really satisifes. However the Super-T give the bass feeling he want with out beating the poor driver to death.
How do you measure that?
Hello again...
My good sound reference is when you can listen music long time without be tired...That's what I call ''Hi-Fi''...Loud or at low level. I think that that nothing is perfect and ''Hi-Fi'' is a matter of taste! Some ''audiophile'' (sorry for this word, some people think that they was the reference to judge sound systeme...!) find that a system is the heaven and another one was crap, but not lot of them like the same thing...Anyways, a guy who pretend that a wire have a direction did not know what is talking and earing..so?
My reference system will not please to every one! In the lab, I use a pair of Audax HT210K2 with Vifa i dont remember model in custom box. That's the first step to find if an amplifier ''sound good''. We listen it with a good piano track and after with a good acoustic guitar track. That's a good way to hear ''crack'' and ''rattle'' in class d amplifier. After this a good drive of reageaton and hip hop music to ears the power ability of the amplifier.
This is all done after a strong observation of a sine wave on the scope! If amplifier did not pass this point, no music will be played on it!
Finally, my favorite sound system was our outdoor kit. We have 4 folded horn compression double 15'' 4.8Kw RMS custom made bass bin, 2 mid bass double 12'' compression box and 2 10'' horn loaded cabinet with 2'' driver. That will provide over 126Db outside at 50' of the speaker with 27 Kw of power amp....This sound very soft and even at 126Db you can listen it all night long without be tired...And I never heard ''hear'' distortion, even in the front of speaker..That was just painfull, even with finger in the ears!
That's all, maybe I have a beton ears!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
PS...By the way, I'm still able to ears a cat in crownd, no ears damage yet...I'm carefull...
My good sound reference is when you can listen music long time without be tired...That's what I call ''Hi-Fi''...Loud or at low level. I think that that nothing is perfect and ''Hi-Fi'' is a matter of taste! Some ''audiophile'' (sorry for this word, some people think that they was the reference to judge sound systeme...!) find that a system is the heaven and another one was crap, but not lot of them like the same thing...Anyways, a guy who pretend that a wire have a direction did not know what is talking and earing..so?
My reference system will not please to every one! In the lab, I use a pair of Audax HT210K2 with Vifa i dont remember model in custom box. That's the first step to find if an amplifier ''sound good''. We listen it with a good piano track and after with a good acoustic guitar track. That's a good way to hear ''crack'' and ''rattle'' in class d amplifier. After this a good drive of reageaton and hip hop music to ears the power ability of the amplifier.
This is all done after a strong observation of a sine wave on the scope! If amplifier did not pass this point, no music will be played on it!
Finally, my favorite sound system was our outdoor kit. We have 4 folded horn compression double 15'' 4.8Kw RMS custom made bass bin, 2 mid bass double 12'' compression box and 2 10'' horn loaded cabinet with 2'' driver. That will provide over 126Db outside at 50' of the speaker with 27 Kw of power amp....This sound very soft and even at 126Db you can listen it all night long without be tired...And I never heard ''hear'' distortion, even in the front of speaker..That was just painfull, even with finger in the ears!
That's all, maybe I have a beton ears!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
PS...By the way, I'm still able to ears a cat in crownd, no ears damage yet...I'm carefull...
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