No reason a person listening to a system in isolation can't evaluate the clarity (intelligibility) of the lyrics of a song being played through that system.
I fully agree.
But I was responding to your other statement that on one system a person cannot make out the lyrics of a song. But on another they can do a better job of that.
But I was responding to your other statement that on one system a person cannot make out the lyrics of a song. But on another they can do a better job of that.
So then would you say that intelligibility of lyrics is fully subjective, like an opinion of how 'good' a system sounds?
Not sure that I would call it fully subjective, but it can be subjective to some extent. It's possible for one person to be able to fairly easily understand the lyrics and another person to have difficulty with it.
It's subjective I like a bright top end that is also crystal clear and not fatiguing. This required a high end mosfet amp and tube preamp similar to Macintosh or AR.
All of it stuffed into an sx780 , so I get tone controls !! as well.
All of it stuffed into an sx780 , so I get tone controls !! as well.
We should find more words that describe objectivity. Clear is good, maybe some number allocated to it Clear 10 is when your windows are dirty and you cannot see at all, Clear 1, you can see every detail. What about Dense 1 -10, 1 is like air, 10 is like cement. Fragile1 is like packaging from eBay 10 represents cast in epoxy. Fatiguing 1 is when you are enjoying yourself in a relaxed atmosphere, 10 is when you try and relax and the neighbours 2 year old kid is throwing a tantrum. Spacious 1 when you standing on a mountain in open air, while 10 is you are in a 1 sq meter sauna cubical 🤔
Last edited:
It seems to me a noteworthy idea to begin with.
A similar way is used to give a numerical grade of quality to silk without using any instrument other than human senses.
And note the silk market is a multi-million dollar market, not a joke.
Grades of Silk
Edit to add that just as a further example maybe also the following article is interesting about the evaluation of cachemere wool quality based exclusively on human skill with any instrumentation.
This is also a more than millionaire market, so that evaluation is taken very seriously.
Cashmere, improvisation is forbidden
A similar way is used to give a numerical grade of quality to silk without using any instrument other than human senses.
And note the silk market is a multi-million dollar market, not a joke.
Grades of Silk
Edit to add that just as a further example maybe also the following article is interesting about the evaluation of cachemere wool quality based exclusively on human skill with any instrumentation.
This is also a more than millionaire market, so that evaluation is taken very seriously.
Cashmere, improvisation is forbidden
Last edited:
True.
Not yet, but it can always be created with so many smart ideas from so many experienced members here and most of all with the good will to do so.
We can talk about anything related we want here (except measurements) I don't see why we should build walls.
It's an initial phase of something that doesn't seem to have any precedents yet.
And we can't even know yet which direction it will take, if any.
However, we are here also to try to be able to create that precedent, if possible.
All similar experiences in other commercial sectors that move a lot of money indicate that it is not impossible to achieve this goal, but in fact similar methods as said are already being used.
Grades of Silk
Cashmere, improvisation is forbidden
However, I respect even if you din't want to change your mind about this since I don't want to convince you about nothing.
I hinted on my previous post that there is listening test one can easily make and detect their auditory system state to make sure the brain is aligned to what one wants to listen to. The listening test enables AB testing with single system but makes also bridge to listening any sound anywhere. Not just loudspeakers but acoustics for example, or live concerts, lectures if student wants / needs to learn, very very important stuff, very little discussed and affects the whole society not just music enthusiasts. Also works as bridge between people discussing about this stuff reducing confusion, assuming most people auditory system work similarly in this regard. It's the Griesinger Limit of Localization Distance, a binary effect in auditory system. It's either on or off, and quite easy to detect perceptually.
The listening test is to find the LLD, where your auditory system switches state. Closer of this distance your brain pays attention, stuff goes straight into memory, there is sharp localization and envelopment happens, basically your attention is captured by the sound and you fully experience it. If you move further than LLD, brain doesn't pay any attention to the sound even if you wanted to, doesn't memorize the sound, there is no sharp localization and no envelopment. This has wide spread effects through the society, for example university that I took had perhaps few rows in front where this happens, and all the people that sat further did have to do a lot more work, concentrate much harder with headache trying to figure out what the lecturer is trying to convey just because the auditory system did not activate brain properly, due to bad acoustics and too long listening distance in relation! Same problem is for school kids, the message just doesn't reach the back seat and it's not problem of the people but problem of the acoustics!
Or, think about a speaker review and where the reviewer doesn't write which side LLD he is listening on, because he doesn't know anything about it but thinks stiff stuff is property of DAC or amplifier, or what ever, never considering it's his brain and listening distance (how his system is setup in room). What if he is within the LLD and gets nice sound and writes about it, but when you purchase the speakers or the DAC and get them to your home but unknowning listen further out than LLD and the sound is not engaging, or doesn't have good stereo image? What is good stereo image? The one that spans beyond speakers (which happens when on is further from LLD) or the one that plays whats on the recording, might be narrow or wide (within LLD)? What about utilizing both at will, if one knows at which listening position the perception changes, then one could just move yourself bit further or bit closer to switch the perception quite radically.
This can also be used to evaluate acoustics, if you play with your system toe-in just listen about at the LLD transition, move back and forth to toggle early reflections in and out form your perception. Did the transition distance change with the adjustment? All kinds of stuff no-one talks about and in my opinion is very fundamental to unlock this stuff, it really boosts listneing skill to next level and reduces confusion with yourself about your own perception, but also helps to give context to forum discussion or any written concepts. It's quite easy to see which side people listen to just by reading their description of sound. Then someone else comments "it's not like that, but like this" and it's easy to read they both speak true, they are just different sides of LLD, and neither of them knows it and just keep on arguing!
The listening test is to find the LLD, where your auditory system switches state. Closer of this distance your brain pays attention, stuff goes straight into memory, there is sharp localization and envelopment happens, basically your attention is captured by the sound and you fully experience it. If you move further than LLD, brain doesn't pay any attention to the sound even if you wanted to, doesn't memorize the sound, there is no sharp localization and no envelopment. This has wide spread effects through the society, for example university that I took had perhaps few rows in front where this happens, and all the people that sat further did have to do a lot more work, concentrate much harder with headache trying to figure out what the lecturer is trying to convey just because the auditory system did not activate brain properly, due to bad acoustics and too long listening distance in relation! Same problem is for school kids, the message just doesn't reach the back seat and it's not problem of the people but problem of the acoustics!
Or, think about a speaker review and where the reviewer doesn't write which side LLD he is listening on, because he doesn't know anything about it but thinks stiff stuff is property of DAC or amplifier, or what ever, never considering it's his brain and listening distance (how his system is setup in room). What if he is within the LLD and gets nice sound and writes about it, but when you purchase the speakers or the DAC and get them to your home but unknowning listen further out than LLD and the sound is not engaging, or doesn't have good stereo image? What is good stereo image? The one that spans beyond speakers (which happens when on is further from LLD) or the one that plays whats on the recording, might be narrow or wide (within LLD)? What about utilizing both at will, if one knows at which listening position the perception changes, then one could just move yourself bit further or bit closer to switch the perception quite radically.
This can also be used to evaluate acoustics, if you play with your system toe-in just listen about at the LLD transition, move back and forth to toggle early reflections in and out form your perception. Did the transition distance change with the adjustment? All kinds of stuff no-one talks about and in my opinion is very fundamental to unlock this stuff, it really boosts listneing skill to next level and reduces confusion with yourself about your own perception, but also helps to give context to forum discussion or any written concepts. It's quite easy to see which side people listen to just by reading their description of sound. Then someone else comments "it's not like that, but like this" and it's easy to read they both speak true, they are just different sides of LLD, and neither of them knows it and just keep on arguing!
Last edited:
Hi tmuikku, just to smile, when I saw in the forum summary yesterday that there was a post of yours I immediately thought: "it will be long!" 🙂
And indeed it was, and also with interesting considerations and food for thought as well.
There is certainly a common basis relating to the perceptions of our senses that is the heritage of humanity.
There is also the ability (or inability) to be able to refine, improve and enhance our senses with training, learning handed down by expert teachers, relating to all the senses and also to various disciplines, I don't know why but kungfu masters came to mind while I was writing.
The brain's ability to process signals of various complex and contemporary nature is astonishing and only those (hopefully few) who do not enjoy a state of good health or have serious impairments are out of the game.
For the rest, we know that it can be done.
And the funniest and most serious part at the same time is that it will never constitute an absolute value (which it cannot and does not want to be), but a value.
And that doesn't seem like a small thing to me.
If we all use the same words and ratings then we have created a standard for sound quality and ambiguity is reduced by orders of magnitude. My system sounds thick 10, and clear 6. It is better than describing a door with only two positions, open or closed even there are different positions, 1/3 open, wide open, etc. Everyone can imagine the state of the door without looking at it. A well written book always describe the situation so that you can imagine and feel the moment as if you are there.
Hah, yeah I already thought I need to consult AI to condence my posts. This stuff is hard to put into words, let alone in short form, and as non native English speaker my posts might be quite hard to consume even if short. I hope you enjoy the post I just posted as well 😀
If you grave more, I've got these long posts about the subject here and there on this forum and ASR, but please first go to Griesinger papers and lectures, I'm just building on top into loudspeaker context, trying to wake up people think about this stuff bit deeper as it's fundamental. I think it's the key that unlocks the listening skill, enables logic to be used with perception so answers the topic title by connecting preference and skill! Enables skill to listen with preference, even if, and especially when preference changes per recording and mood 😉
Last edited:
IIRC Martin Colloms used a system like this when I was a regular reader of HFNRR. Of course is was all relative to some baseline he created himself.
So if we have clarity measure could we all agree what represents 5 on that 0-10 scale? That is, can we calibrate it in a meaningful way?
Naah, things done the old fashioned way are so beautiful in their (fragile) humanity! 🙂
Just a small divagation.
The internet is really amazing and I'm glad it still surprises me.
The expression "old fashioned" is a line from the movie Matrix (The Wachowski Brothers, 1999) that came to mind while I was writing it.
So I googled something to look for that line... and I just found it! 😍
Even the full transcript (in Italian) of the movie.
The exact line is this:
TANK: Holes? Oh, no, me and my brother Dozer are 100% pure, old fashioned humans born and raised free here in the real world. Genuine children of Zion.
From here.
This illustrates part of the problem. Nothing sounds any different to me now than it did 50 years ago. My brain has done the equalisation.
I had a hearing test a couple of years ago I have age related top end droop, but mid and low frequencies are largely intact.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.