Isn't what many of us would like , an least colored sound ?
isn't what HI-FI is "all" about the fidelity of what was record with transparency ? , listenning the music and not the gear , as much as possible ...
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Except Harmon left out two of the most important things: Soundstage width and depth.
That's really the goal, along with a few other things which are rarely measured, nor included in Harmon tests.
Your comments to FrankieS that I referenced were clearly insulting. The fact that you don't recognize that is concerning.
You said his contributions were not constructive and then went on to claim he was aware of that. Essentially accusing him of intentionally lying.
How is that not insulting?
we should take the boiling out of the water. nobody knows truth.
for most of us audio is a not more than a hobby, for few a profession.
my being-insulted-threshold is rather high. so write as you like.
And I'm not without fail. Particularly, I only tested criminally few audio components myself.
But I feel, I learnt a lot about human reasoning (and feeling).
This thread seems to me a philosophical one. There will be no definitive answers.
Audio quality discussions from a certain extent of (good) quality will
be belief discussions. Discussions similar to discussions on homeopathy.
If I am reading on the positive audio effects of 'high-end cables' (as compared to the
regular short & thick copper cables), I know: Not my business.
for most of us audio is a not more than a hobby, for few a profession.
my being-insulted-threshold is rather high. so write as you like.
And I'm not without fail. Particularly, I only tested criminally few audio components myself.
But I feel, I learnt a lot about human reasoning (and feeling).
This thread seems to me a philosophical one. There will be no definitive answers.
Audio quality discussions from a certain extent of (good) quality will
be belief discussions. Discussions similar to discussions on homeopathy.
If I am reading on the positive audio effects of 'high-end cables' (as compared to the
regular short & thick copper cables), I know: Not my business.
What in the world are you talking about?
Those studies done at Harmon by Dr. Toole were based on people listening to actual music.
What else would you use if you want measure how people perceive sound quality in the audio, hi-fi sector?
First, I would argue that soundstage width and depth are not the two most important things. In fact, far from it.
Toole's tests could not include optimizing soundstage sitting because he used a large audience and there would only be one seat where the soundstage would be right.
None of that, however, negates his main findings which were primarily related to sound quality and listener's perception of it.
Maybe you have never heard a really good system? Linkwitz liked a good soundstage. He published some papers on the subject.
I have heard a really good system. Everyday. The one I have is a really good system.
But soundstage to me is not the most important thing as you claim. In fact, I've compromised mine somewhat by moving the speakers from out in the room where they were to against the front wall in order to improve the appearance of the room. And to please my wife.
Have I lost the excellent sound stage that I have previously? Yes, it's noticeably different now. But I still thoroughly enjoy the system. And enjoy being in the room more without the speakers out in the middle of it. Sometimes you have to make compromises.
But soundstage to me is not the most important thing as you claim. In fact, I've compromised mine somewhat by moving the speakers from out in the room where they were to against the front wall in order to improve the appearance of the room. And to please my wife.
Have I lost the excellent sound stage that I have previously? Yes, it's noticeably different now. But I still thoroughly enjoy the system. And enjoy being in the room more without the speakers out in the middle of it. Sometimes you have to make compromises.
@classicalfan: which are the components of your system, particularly the loudspeakers. and what is your favorite music ?
FrankieS,
I have a very modest system, at least in terms of cost.
The speakers are a Jeff Bagby design called the Piccolos. Since you are fairly new here you might not recognize that name. Jeff was an independent speaker designer who did it for a hobby, but was probably as good at it, or maybe even better, than some of the people who do it as job. Unfortunately, he contracted the Covid virus at the very beginning of the epidemic and passed away several years ago. Jeff's designs were offered as kits by Meniscus Audio, but now they have gone out of business and it's no longer possible to get access to his designs. At least there is no way that I know of.
The Piccolo is a 2-way speaker, and I think what makes it so exceptional is the choice of the tweeter. It uses an SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-004 ring tweeter, which according to a Reddit write up on the Piccolo that same tweeter is used in some very high- end commercial speaker systems.
Here is a link to a website with that write up if you care to read the whole story:
If you don't want to read the entire article, here is the conclusion of it.
"Sitting on a pair of quality stands a pair of these small speakers would satisfy the majority of music lovers on 95% of the music they play. What they give up in ultimate output level, they more than make up for in a pinpoint imaging, open soundstage, realistic scale, and overall coherence. This is a small speaker designed to deliver the highest level of performance at entry level prices. In fact, it is a very high level of construction and performance competitive with the finest small speakers at any price. You are just able to have this performance at entry level prices."
My amplifier is nothing special. Just a relatively low cost 7-channel Denon AVR. I'm of the opinion that the speakers and room combination are responsible for 80% of what you hear. Maybe even more than that. So, I don't spend any time or money worrying about other things that I seriously doubt you can hear. Like high end amplifiers and expensive cables.
Also, my listening room is fairly small and heavily carpeted. So, I think that helps dampen some of reverberations that otherwise might be audible.
As far as music is concerned, I only listen to classical and opera. Hence, my forum name.
I think what's important to point out here is that classical music is very demanding, particularly at the upper end where flutes, piccolos, and some of the strings live. And these speakers deliver, to me at least, exceptional performance in that range.
I have a very modest system, at least in terms of cost.
The speakers are a Jeff Bagby design called the Piccolos. Since you are fairly new here you might not recognize that name. Jeff was an independent speaker designer who did it for a hobby, but was probably as good at it, or maybe even better, than some of the people who do it as job. Unfortunately, he contracted the Covid virus at the very beginning of the epidemic and passed away several years ago. Jeff's designs were offered as kits by Meniscus Audio, but now they have gone out of business and it's no longer possible to get access to his designs. At least there is no way that I know of.
The Piccolo is a 2-way speaker, and I think what makes it so exceptional is the choice of the tweeter. It uses an SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-004 ring tweeter, which according to a Reddit write up on the Piccolo that same tweeter is used in some very high- end commercial speaker systems.
Here is a link to a website with that write up if you care to read the whole story:
If you don't want to read the entire article, here is the conclusion of it.
"Sitting on a pair of quality stands a pair of these small speakers would satisfy the majority of music lovers on 95% of the music they play. What they give up in ultimate output level, they more than make up for in a pinpoint imaging, open soundstage, realistic scale, and overall coherence. This is a small speaker designed to deliver the highest level of performance at entry level prices. In fact, it is a very high level of construction and performance competitive with the finest small speakers at any price. You are just able to have this performance at entry level prices."
My amplifier is nothing special. Just a relatively low cost 7-channel Denon AVR. I'm of the opinion that the speakers and room combination are responsible for 80% of what you hear. Maybe even more than that. So, I don't spend any time or money worrying about other things that I seriously doubt you can hear. Like high end amplifiers and expensive cables.
Also, my listening room is fairly small and heavily carpeted. So, I think that helps dampen some of reverberations that otherwise might be audible.
As far as music is concerned, I only listen to classical and opera. Hence, my forum name.
I think what's important to point out here is that classical music is very demanding, particularly at the upper end where flutes, piccolos, and some of the strings live. And these speakers deliver, to me at least, exceptional performance in that range.
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Just to clarify the above, that Reddit write-up is actually a copy of a something that Jeff himself wrote about the Piccolos and was originally on the Meniscus website as best as I can recall.
Okay, Understood. You're in the USA, right? Where would that be? I am a bit N/E of Sacramento, CA.
Yes. 32-bit AKM DAC. It's a Denon AVR-S750H. No longer available as that exact model. Not very expensive, but not sure I would hear much difference with a more expensive one anyhow. The latest version is the AVR-S770H, and it has a list price of $650.
As I mentioned above, I'm of the opinion that at least 80% of what you hear is primarily determined by the speakers, the room, and your listening position. And that the electronics play a relatively small role if they are least clean and distortion free, which mine are.
Can you hear the difference in DACs? I don't really know but think even if you could it would be a minor one. I don't fret over it.
I'm in SoCal.
Before I reply to this, I want to assure you that it never crossed my mind to insult you in any way.
And in fact I didn't.
When I said that you were aware that your comment was not constructive, but instead "destructive" (please note the quotation marks) I was referring to the fact that your post began by saying the following:
That's all.
Around, I'm not saying in this thread, there are already enough characters who destroy what little we have in relation to the sense of Hearing and its value, that's why I wanted to tell you that your comment was not "constructive".
It seems really surreal to me that in an Audio Forum listening experiences are opposed in this way.
I want them to have a recognized value, because they have it.
The detractors are careful not to respond to what creates a value, they just want to apply their useless, at least about this specified topic, logic.
And so they feel happy like that.
Whether this thread is "philosophical" I don't know yet, it's certainly not in the technical section of the forum.
And equally certain is the fact that it wants to create the right to share one's listening experiences without being unjustifiably attacked by the usual suspects.
Speaking of "definitive answers", why are you looking for them just here?
Ask the designers of audio devices, not the technicians who don't even know what they're talking about, and ask them what the "definitive answer" is to know from instrumental evaluations how an audio device sounds.
Do it, but not here, please.
I need to amend what I said earlier in Post #291 about the availability of Jeff Bagby designs.
There is still one design available, the Solstice MLTL Reference Tower Speaker, at Parts Express. It's fairly expensive at $750 each, $1500 for a pair. But apparently based on 40 5-star reviews by people who built them they sound outstanding.
https://www.parts-express.com/Solst...utm_medium=Impact&utm_campaign=Impact&irgwc=1
There is still one design available, the Solstice MLTL Reference Tower Speaker, at Parts Express. It's fairly expensive at $750 each, $1500 for a pair. But apparently based on 40 5-star reviews by people who built them they sound outstanding.
https://www.parts-express.com/Solst...utm_medium=Impact&utm_campaign=Impact&irgwc=1
Hello, dear @classicalfan,
thank You very kindly for your comprehensive information. It is always interesting
to know what setup other people use and what they think of it.
Yes, all your points sound reasonable to me. Surely, today the loudspeakers and the room are the major defining elements
of factual sound of the system.
have a nice day !
@cumbb and @tmuikku
I'm addressing you two because in chronological order your posts are the most recent and the most conspicuous in terms of words and content and I've not been able to reply to you two as I would have liked, also because I do not have so much experience as you two (and other ones too).
The same thing happened with other comments before, but now those comments are gone.
Thanks for your appreciated comments (with cumbb I agree a lot about the fact that a particular type of distortion makes listening more enjoyable, I never believed it and I find it a kind of absurdity IMHO, and I wanted to tell you), they give me back confidence in pursuing this path, if we ever manage to reach an appreciated goal.
I don't know what I read where, and it's not very easy to find them without using a lot of time, so I say thanks again.
I admire both of you for your approach to experimentation that you carry out with skill and with excellent organization and with an abundance of details, your posts should be highlighted, in a perfect world. IMHO
I wanted to tell you two the above because time is not unlimited and sometimes replying to a comment means giving up doing it for another.
I'm addressing you two because in chronological order your posts are the most recent and the most conspicuous in terms of words and content and I've not been able to reply to you two as I would have liked, also because I do not have so much experience as you two (and other ones too).
The same thing happened with other comments before, but now those comments are gone.
Thanks for your appreciated comments (with cumbb I agree a lot about the fact that a particular type of distortion makes listening more enjoyable, I never believed it and I find it a kind of absurdity IMHO, and I wanted to tell you), they give me back confidence in pursuing this path, if we ever manage to reach an appreciated goal.
I don't know what I read where, and it's not very easy to find them without using a lot of time, so I say thanks again.
I admire both of you for your approach to experimentation that you carry out with skill and with excellent organization and with an abundance of details, your posts should be highlighted, in a perfect world. IMHO
I wanted to tell you two the above because time is not unlimited and sometimes replying to a comment means giving up doing it for another.
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