There's a difference between absolute pitch and relative pitch. One can be quite sensitive to the latter (which is why I can't listen to some singers and perhaps your issue with American Idol) while being not terribly sensitive to the former. Some people have an innate ability to sense absolute pitch without training, but I understand that if you have good relative pitch sensitivity, absolute pitch can be indeed learned.
Sy, I think that the range of "perfectly learned pitch" is limited... I doubt strongly that a note outside of the usual range of operation would be properly recognized... I have yet to find a person who learned "perfect pitch". Perhaps your experience is different.
_-_-bear
_-_-bear
why would you consider this 'brain damage' rather than a desirable skill?Wavebourn said:Hmmm... What kind of brain damages causes learning to imagine curves on oscilloscopes when hearing sounds, or to imagine sounds when seeing curves on oscilloscopes?
myhrrhleine said:
It was sarcasm.
Like, a typical scientific experiment, with cockroach.
Dictating in microphone:
"Step one. Giving the command. Run!!! Cockroach react.
Step two. Removing one leg. Run!!! Positive reaction.
...
Step last. Removing the last leg. Run!!! No reaction.
Conclusion: since as the result of amputation of all legs cockroach don't react on the command we may conclude that the creature have audio perceptors on legs"
The same with brain... Cut peace and see what functions stopped working, then make the very similar conclusion. Very scientific approach!
john curl said:
You may think whatever you want, but I still don't buy theories about synapses forming memory paths.
An interesting chapter in 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat' by Oliver Sacks, called: "The President's Speech."
There, patients in a hospital ward with missing parts of their brain listening to former president Ronald Regan giving a 'moving' address to the people. Most of them laughed, several were annoyed.
This is because certain parts of their brain function were gone, most normal people would have fallen for it, at least on the surface.
Hi fidelity is a lot like that. We are trying to create a convincing 'illusion' of a past performance, first by transmitting the recorded information clearly, and secondly by not corrupting the information with added garbage that destroys the illusion. When it works, it is magic! When it doesn't, it is mid fi.
Just like a quality photograph and a snapshot. Both may be representations of the same thing, but one conveys the experience, the other only the gross details.
There, patients in a hospital ward with missing parts of their brain listening to former president Ronald Regan giving a 'moving' address to the people. Most of them laughed, several were annoyed.
This is because certain parts of their brain function were gone, most normal people would have fallen for it, at least on the surface.
Hi fidelity is a lot like that. We are trying to create a convincing 'illusion' of a past performance, first by transmitting the recorded information clearly, and secondly by not corrupting the information with added garbage that destroys the illusion. When it works, it is magic! When it doesn't, it is mid fi.
Just like a quality photograph and a snapshot. Both may be representations of the same thing, but one conveys the experience, the other only the gross details.
Wavebourn said:
You mean neuronal networks? These theories, if you want to call it that, are well established in the medical community. And Tinnitus Retraining Therapy has been proven a very effective treatment for Tinnitus and Hyperacusis, in double blind tests. Why does the medical community use double blind tests? To validate the results.
Some local elementary schools are using a computer program to help kids learn by increasing the brain plasticity. There's even a very effective treatment much like TRT for people with post trumatic stress disorder. They face their disaffection and think good thoughs, and reprograming their sensory system.
Years ago I went to an audio salon to hear some very good speakers but they were driving them with some 13 watt Cary tube amps. It was a 97dB speaker but likely dropped to 4ohms in the bass since it had two woofers. The sound was soft, bloomy, lacking detail, dynamics. This system would make Metallica sound like Mozart. We didn't like it and asked them if they would hook up the Pass Alpha Zero. They didn't want to saying that this amp was much better.
We were both trusting our ears. Who was right? I'd bet their system didn't sound anything like the actually event recorded. They thought it was pretty accurate though. Why does experience and familiarity and a point of reference matter? The Brain, Learning, Memory, Beliefs, Conditioned Reflexes, Habituation.
I prefer NLP models. They are comprehensive and convenient to learn and pass experiences, patterns, strategies, but don't contain speculations of "how it works", they have explanations of "what to do to make it work".
Well, this is going to make all of the professional musicians that I know cry out loud when I tell them that they could have perfect pitch if they only applied themselves and learned it properly.
I guess we should tell all the graduates of Julliard, Berklee and the great Conservatories of Europe about this too...
We're not talking about just recognizing that a note is for example an "E" or an "A" or even an "Ab"... we're talking about that and being able to tell if it is a few cents north or south of the mark... without a prior reference note. That is perfect pitch.
So, perhaps I am wrong about this?
In which case would some proponent of the proposition please provide some citations which will convince otherwise??
Thanks...
_-_-bear
I guess we should tell all the graduates of Julliard, Berklee and the great Conservatories of Europe about this too...
We're not talking about just recognizing that a note is for example an "E" or an "A" or even an "Ab"... we're talking about that and being able to tell if it is a few cents north or south of the mark... without a prior reference note. That is perfect pitch.
So, perhaps I am wrong about this?
In which case would some proponent of the proposition please provide some citations which will convince otherwise??
Thanks...
_-_-bear
bear said:
People who restore historical recordings go to great lengths to research the exact "A" tuning for each conductor/musician. It varies quite a bit when "perfection" is concerned.
Scott,
I don't see any way that can be determined empirically.
Perhaps if they have the tuning fork (assuming one was ever used) that a given conductor tuned to, it would be plausible... otherwise, no way.
They might be able to find some notes or references written in the conductor's or musicians' hands that state a preference in tuning...
Besides, even knowing the "exact" note originally intended to be used, it is unlikely that that note is exactly the one finally arrived upon when everyone finally got tuned up.
In practice the first violin gives the note before the performance.
So, what would they be "researching"??
_-_-bear
Hendrix tuned down a half step or more... 😀
I don't see any way that can be determined empirically.
Perhaps if they have the tuning fork (assuming one was ever used) that a given conductor tuned to, it would be plausible... otherwise, no way.
They might be able to find some notes or references written in the conductor's or musicians' hands that state a preference in tuning...
Besides, even knowing the "exact" note originally intended to be used, it is unlikely that that note is exactly the one finally arrived upon when everyone finally got tuned up.
In practice the first violin gives the note before the performance.
So, what would they be "researching"??
_-_-bear
Hendrix tuned down a half step or more... 😀
Wavebourn said:
I'm not familiar with NLP, so I can't comment much on that. I did look up some on the internet about it and I didn't see a lot of conflict between the two models. I'll look up some more later.
bear said:Well, this is going to make all of the professional musicians that I know cry out loud when I tell them that they could have perfect pitch if they only applied themselves and learned it properly.
I guess we should tell all the graduates of Julliard, Berklee and the great Conservatories of Europe about this too...
We're not talking about just recognizing that a note is for example an "E" or an "A" or even an "Ab"... we're talking about that and being able to tell if it is a few cents north or south of the mark... without a prior reference note. That is perfect pitch.
So, perhaps I am wrong about this?
In which case would some proponent of the proposition please provide some citations which will convince otherwise??
Thanks...
_-_-bear
I don't play an instrument, and I couldn't tell A, from a B, C, ...... How does one determine if someone has perfect pitch? I'd assume that the artist would listen to tones and tell when they hit a particular note. Sounds kind of like a blind test to me.
I'd think people can could learn to improve their pitch. Although I'm sure some people are going to be more talented at it. I'd never tell anyone the couldn't achieve perfect pitch.
Johnloudb, if you had said the equivalent about something electronic in this thread, you'd have been "beaten up somethin' fierce", imho.
A person with perfect pitch does not need to be an "artist", they merely can differentiate small increments of tone and recognize their "absolute" value without any training nor practice.
It is akin to people who can tell you the day of the week of any date you mention... or people who can multiply two very large numbers in their head instantly?
You can not "learn" these things. You can improve your existing skills, but that is not the same thing.
I would not tell people something that gives them false hope either.
_-_-bear
PS. if absolute pitch could be taught, or even something "in the ballpark", it would put all those "guitar tuner" manufacturers right out of business, eh? Not to mention the folks who get big bux for tuning real pianos...
A person with perfect pitch does not need to be an "artist", they merely can differentiate small increments of tone and recognize their "absolute" value without any training nor practice.
It is akin to people who can tell you the day of the week of any date you mention... or people who can multiply two very large numbers in their head instantly?
You can not "learn" these things. You can improve your existing skills, but that is not the same thing.
I would not tell people something that gives them false hope either.
_-_-bear
PS. if absolute pitch could be taught, or even something "in the ballpark", it would put all those "guitar tuner" manufacturers right out of business, eh? Not to mention the folks who get big bux for tuning real pianos...
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