Actually, some people are gifted to recognizing sonic nuance. Before hi fi got me going, I used to evaluate classical guitars. I could hear differences that many people would miss. I don't know why, but I realized that I had a 'gift' for it, when I was still a teenager. I do think that this has been very useful with audio design. I have met people in the audio business who amazed even me, with their sensitivity to nuance. I prefer to cultivate those people, rather than the hear-no-difference crowd. It's more fun, and they appreciate a good effort, more.
John,
it is interesting to observe that most people criticising your views and experience, do not even try to produce a competitive (in the "high end" market place) audio device. Their usual excuse is that high end audio market is just one large con. There is a certain amount of truth in that point of view 😉 , however it is - by far - not the whole truth.
To create a really good sounding audio system which can satisfy many different people takes more that just plain electronics engineering. It requires a specific experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, large part of this specific knowledge is not formalised in a scientific way - perhaps it can not be fully formalised as at the end we have to deal with a subjective perception of a human person. But the absence of such formalisation does not mean that this experience and knowledge are fictional or useless. Far from it.
I am strongly supporting your position here on the forum - because by sharing a very similar approach I can design and make good sounding products well received by other people. And that reception is the real proof for me that this approach is correct.
Alex
it is interesting to observe that most people criticising your views and experience, do not even try to produce a competitive (in the "high end" market place) audio device. Their usual excuse is that high end audio market is just one large con. There is a certain amount of truth in that point of view 😉 , however it is - by far - not the whole truth.
To create a really good sounding audio system which can satisfy many different people takes more that just plain electronics engineering. It requires a specific experience and knowledge. Unfortunately, large part of this specific knowledge is not formalised in a scientific way - perhaps it can not be fully formalised as at the end we have to deal with a subjective perception of a human person. But the absence of such formalisation does not mean that this experience and knowledge are fictional or useless. Far from it.
I am strongly supporting your position here on the forum - because by sharing a very similar approach I can design and make good sounding products well received by other people. And that reception is the real proof for me that this approach is correct.
Alex
Oh, please. How about me being told that wires don't count and my good friend Jack Bybee is not for real? I can get insulted too, you know!
JC
I this is a silly discussion; I’m wondering what the next will be.
I have seen some wire fanatics discussing which way would be the right way to connect the wire. They mean that wires are constructed so the signal is flowing better one way than the other, so that there will be a big difference which way you connect the wire.
Joshua what do you think?
JC what about the servo and the resistor?
Stinius
I this is a silly discussion; I’m wondering what the next will be.
I have seen some wire fanatics discussing which way would be the right way to connect the wire. They mean that wires are constructed so the signal is flowing better one way than the other, so that there will be a big difference which way you connect the wire.
Joshua what do you think?
JC what about the servo and the resistor?
Stinius
Alex, I agree with what you wrote on post #11063.
Stinius, with some cables, they sound differently in different direction – this is my experience.
SY, excuses are many, indeed. How about designing and building great sounding audio gear for your own use?
Stinius, with some cables, they sound differently in different direction – this is my experience.
SY, excuses are many, indeed. How about designing and building great sounding audio gear for your own use?
john curl said:Oh, please. How about me being told that wires don't count and my good friend Jack Bybee is not for real? I can get insulted too, you know!
You have a very special (including I/O asymmetrical) understanding for "insult".
I know people who can tell the difference in wire direction. I can't measure it (yet) however.
jan:
me too! one of my favorite tv shows, babylon 5, had an episode showing humans 1 million years into the future. i would love to see that myself, assuming, we haven't killed each other off by then.
mlloyd1
me too! one of my favorite tv shows, babylon 5, had an episode showing humans 1 million years into the future. i would love to see that myself, assuming, we haven't killed each other off by then.
mlloyd1
janneman said:
This whole argument is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, no matter what we say, those who do not believe there is any difference will continue to hear none. They simply do not believe that others are capable of doing things that they haven't taken the time to learn or understand. Couple that with the fact that the process of voicing equipment is tedious as Hell, and not enjoyable in the least! Most people never develop any kind of listening habits because, and this is the important part: THEY DON'T HAVE TO. Listening for subtle changes in cables or equipment is a learned skill, and some refuse to accept that fact, just as some continue to refuse to accept that man did, in fact, walk on the moon.
When I was starting out down the somewhat lonely high end audio road, I was convinced my home system, consisting of Bose 10.2 loudspeakers, and an old Marantz model 15 amplifier, was better than literally ANY other system. I could not hear any deficiencies in comparison to the others I listened to. I was happy with my sound, and I was happy with my music as I listened to an ever growing collection of equipment discarded by my local repair shop, which I rebuilt in my spare time. I went on in ignorant bliss for the next few years…
Then, one fateful day, I bought a CD player. I was appalled with how bad it sounded, especially compared to my $20 turntable, with a $30 cartridge. Trying to make this thing sound good, I built my own vacuum tube preamplifier, and my descent into madness had begun in earnest. Fast forward to the present, and I am still locked in mortal combat with audio.
Most people cannot draw, or play music, or take a halfway decent photograph. Most people do not truly care what form their music takes. They do not have the training to recognize the signals, and they don't want it. Listening with the capital "L" has about as much to do with hearing as being a master chef has to do with possessing a tongue.
Audiophiles, and those of us like Mr. Curl who serve audiophiles' equipment needs, usually make no claims for better physical hearing. But trying to explain how any of this works to someone who openly mocks our efforts is a waste of everyone's time. Music, and the equipment that reproduces it, means something else to many people. They think of stereo equipment as an appliance, rather than an art unto itself, and why eat Filet Mignon when you cannot discern or appreciate the differences between it and meat loaf? They're both Beef, right?
With regards to musicians being the ultimate listeners: In my experience, musicians can seldom be relied upon to give any meaningful insight with regards to musical reproduction. Most I've met rely on a '90s era boombox in the corner that the cat has probably pissed on, and the speakers, if both are even present, are usually connected out of phase, or in different rooms altogether. They are not listening for the same things we do, and they couldn't care less about the differences we slave over. They are listening for timing, levels, performance cues, etc- In short, they are listening for the performance, not the electronics. They would be hard pressed to identify the differences between an old 8 track cassette and a session master tape. Just as everything else in life, there are exceptions. But by in large, artists concern themselves only with the emotion and execution, and don't get hung up on subtle details. Thats OUR job.
When I was starting out down the somewhat lonely high end audio road, I was convinced my home system, consisting of Bose 10.2 loudspeakers, and an old Marantz model 15 amplifier, was better than literally ANY other system. I could not hear any deficiencies in comparison to the others I listened to. I was happy with my sound, and I was happy with my music as I listened to an ever growing collection of equipment discarded by my local repair shop, which I rebuilt in my spare time. I went on in ignorant bliss for the next few years…
Then, one fateful day, I bought a CD player. I was appalled with how bad it sounded, especially compared to my $20 turntable, with a $30 cartridge. Trying to make this thing sound good, I built my own vacuum tube preamplifier, and my descent into madness had begun in earnest. Fast forward to the present, and I am still locked in mortal combat with audio.
Most people cannot draw, or play music, or take a halfway decent photograph. Most people do not truly care what form their music takes. They do not have the training to recognize the signals, and they don't want it. Listening with the capital "L" has about as much to do with hearing as being a master chef has to do with possessing a tongue.
Audiophiles, and those of us like Mr. Curl who serve audiophiles' equipment needs, usually make no claims for better physical hearing. But trying to explain how any of this works to someone who openly mocks our efforts is a waste of everyone's time. Music, and the equipment that reproduces it, means something else to many people. They think of stereo equipment as an appliance, rather than an art unto itself, and why eat Filet Mignon when you cannot discern or appreciate the differences between it and meat loaf? They're both Beef, right?
With regards to musicians being the ultimate listeners: In my experience, musicians can seldom be relied upon to give any meaningful insight with regards to musical reproduction. Most I've met rely on a '90s era boombox in the corner that the cat has probably pissed on, and the speakers, if both are even present, are usually connected out of phase, or in different rooms altogether. They are not listening for the same things we do, and they couldn't care less about the differences we slave over. They are listening for timing, levels, performance cues, etc- In short, they are listening for the performance, not the electronics. They would be hard pressed to identify the differences between an old 8 track cassette and a session master tape. Just as everything else in life, there are exceptions. But by in large, artists concern themselves only with the emotion and execution, and don't get hung up on subtle details. Thats OUR job.
This is the stock anecdotal response that I have seen for years. Why would anyone want to listen to electronics and not the music, ever.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.