Well said, Mike. With wine tasting, only the wine changes. With audio evaluation both the music and the equipment changes. Over a limited range of music, both components might sound the same.
And even if the music changes, and you can hear a difference sometimes, the 95% threshold of an ABX test invalidates any differences statistically, because of its high threshold. Get real, people!
And even if the music changes, and you can hear a difference sometimes, the 95% threshold of an ABX test invalidates any differences statistically, because of its high threshold. Get real, people!
john curl said:
Exactly, So many subtle variables, it can't be distilled into such a simple formula.
Yeah, get real indeed. Go to an unamplified event, listen to REAL music and after a while you will just learn to live with fact that reproduction at home is just that - reproduction. And will always be inferior.
It is so funny that people who actually get obsessed with equipment are never true music connoseurs. I know guys who have invested well towards 100k in gear and have less than 100 records! I'm yet to meet a music professional who comments on equipment over the performance. The gap between people who listen to MUSIC as opposed to EQUIPMENT is widening, if anything.
I'm so glad I'm over this trivial pursuit, and spend my hard earned $ on concerts and records instead on cables, magic fuses and obscure parts. Yes, all that may improve the sound by 0.000001% but I'd rather have another record or hundred instead.
Bratislav said:
Actually, reproduced sound can be quite good, but I can't argue with your appreciation of live music. But, it is nice to sit in my own room and enjoy music when live is not an option. This is what most people who put the effort into this are doing it for. It's not a passive effort though and I agree it can be very frustrating.
Mike.
MikeBettinger said:
Mike,
I enjoy home reproduction just as much as the next guy. It is just impractical to only listen to live music, even if one had funds and time for it.
I'm just questioning the value of constantly searching for the minute deficiencies that only God given few might hear after listening for them for several weeks. In devices that are well known to be the strongest links in the sound reproduction chain.
Bratislav
It is like auto design. At first, an auto may seem to drive OK. However, over weeks you or a test car driver might find some problems. You fix the problems before you release the car to the public. You might tell other auto designers of the problem that you found and fixed. It might help them avoid the problem. Is this so exceptional?
john curl said:
Like audio, car industry relies on subjective impressions a lot more than hard numbers. Subaru has relased its latest WRX Sti that is unquestionably fastest ever, in straight line OR around the track. You know what the single largest complaint from the journos is ? It is too easy to drive fast ! It doesn't challenge you enough. It is too comfortable. It is too quiet.
I'd say if you expect your emotions to be stirred while sitting in the car waiting for the next green light you're going to miss anyway because traffic is clogged for miles ahead, put some Wagner in the CD tray. Or Bruckner. Or Mahler. Sibelius. Miles Davis. Jarrett. Charlie Parker.
Yes, I do enjoy spirited driving. But for 99% of the time it just takes me from A to B.
MikeBettinger said:
Mike,
I can agree to most of this, a thoughtfull post. It does also confirm my suspicion that quickly soldering in a new brand X coupling cap and immediately reporting a huge improvement is, shall we say, less than convincing.
Jan Didden
fredex said:
I find it odd that, while audio is ALL about perception, nobody is interested to know how we perceive. What's the point fiddling with equipment if you don't even know how you handle the result?
Jan Didden
Unamplified live events other than symphonic music are a little hard to find. Even most acoustic groups still use amplifiers, however having said that, usually the live music still sounds better than the recording.
I assume that with each instrument or vocalist having their own amp, microphone, wires and speakers that this must explain the apparent paradox. I guess I feel that the act of mixing and then reproducing over a single amplifier chain and speaker pair brings out the worst. This could also explain why single instruments or vocalists often sound good when reproduced over a good system, so good that for me, goosebumps are not unusual.
I know that for many musician's equipment that the electronics quality is so so compared to a first class home system, still the sound at the live event is more three dimensional with deeper resolution and greater emotional involvement. In this example each amplifier is playing a single instrument.
Regarding the size of the financial investment: I do feel that you should never spend more on home hardware than you have spent on a library of music, whether that be CD, vinyl, DVD or SACD.
I assume that with each instrument or vocalist having their own amp, microphone, wires and speakers that this must explain the apparent paradox. I guess I feel that the act of mixing and then reproducing over a single amplifier chain and speaker pair brings out the worst. This could also explain why single instruments or vocalists often sound good when reproduced over a good system, so good that for me, goosebumps are not unusual.
I know that for many musician's equipment that the electronics quality is so so compared to a first class home system, still the sound at the live event is more three dimensional with deeper resolution and greater emotional involvement. In this example each amplifier is playing a single instrument.
Regarding the size of the financial investment: I do feel that you should never spend more on home hardware than you have spent on a library of music, whether that be CD, vinyl, DVD or SACD.
with only 400 LPs and 600 CDs I'm afraid to admit breaking your rule. But what value do you put on airwave entertainment which probably accounts for more than 60% of my listening?hermanv said:
janneman said:
Jan.
People are interested in how we perceive sounds.
99% at this forum are.
It is just that not many care that much
as to do some serious research using scientifically approved methods.
Subjective listening is nice and well enough to give us pleasure or less pleasure.
So why explore this matter further?
It is rather good as it is.
It is only we, 'scientific minds', that would have the drive and motivation
to find out more knowledge.
😎
With one semiconductor device, transistor, is a difference.
We need objective data to use them well.
Okay, there are quite a number of people using transistors in a subjective way
without knowing any figures, except what they can see: Size and colour.
But for a serious designer, just listening to different transistors
would be rather meaningless.
We pick Op-Amps, transistors, rersistors, capacitors mainly from the specifications they have.
so they will perform as good as possible in circuit.
Thinking about wine, one can see the wine as a complete stereo system. The wine is made up out of several components: type of grapes, climate where the grape is grown, the terroir, when the grape was picked, the processing of the grapes, the fermentation process, storage time, where the wine is stored (barrels for ex), etc.
The end result is the wine in the bottle. Now, how the wine is served, in what glasses, at what temp, and at what age all influences the impression of the wine.
But of course one cannot change one of the above compenents as one can with a stereo system.
But one can change how the wine is served.
Sigurd
The end result is the wine in the bottle. Now, how the wine is served, in what glasses, at what temp, and at what age all influences the impression of the wine.
But of course one cannot change one of the above compenents as one can with a stereo system.
But one can change how the wine is served.
Sigurd
john curl said:
Bratislav said:
[OT]
Like car reviewers, audio revievers in popular print are mostly full of cr@p. Despite the hype and BS track figures released by Subara, the STi never was a particularly fast car.
I really hope the latest STi has a much better engine, because the previous versions were just plain junk.
Here is a decent review of a previous model:
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_1463/article.html
[/OT]
Cheers,
Glen
I was being too literal, for a billionaire to spend $100K for a stereo even if he owns only 2 discs is fine. For a family unable to provide braces for their kids the story is different.AndrewT said:
You seem to have at a guess around $7,000 worth of music. Musical enjoyment should be the main objective of a home system, it appears in your case that this has not been lost.
May you enjoy both the musical artistry and the sounds they make in the process 🙂
Bratislav said:
Bratislav,
I couldn't agree more. I'm a bit out of step in so far as I won't concern myself with any effect that is the equivelent of someone whispering at the far end of a football field.
Changes such as the differences between components, operating points and layout (although not easily measured) are hearable but take, as I said, time and knowing what you're listening for to clearly and repeatably discern and describe.
Mike.
Hi end audio is a hobby (pleasure) onto itself. There is a small number of well off people who find hi end audio as relaxing, after their usual work schedule.
It has been my experience to find doctors, lawyers, financial magnates, and other professionals as my main customers. They have the money, and they don't like cheaply made goods.
For the rest of us, including engineers, we can live with more reasonable enclosures, and sometimes find DIY as an effective and fun way to get the same quality sound, without the extended price that is necessary with dealers, follow-up, fancy finishes. This is all well and good, but there is nothing wrong with the expensive route either, IF one can easily afford it, and trust me, many can.
People like me get a sample of the fruits of their efforts, and pretty good deals, usually used, on the rest of the the components that we can't build ourselves. As a hobby, it is not more expensive than electric trains, a small sailboat, or other hobby.
For many hi end designers, it is the challenge of making a better design that keeps us on our toes. While many of us are friendly on this thread, we are still strong competitors with both each other and the rest of the world. We all would like to make the best products possible, and be respected for it. There is not much financial reward as a designer in audio, today.
Why any would nit-pick at this hobby is beyond me, but many here do, without regard to our real interests or feelings of unjust criticism. What is the payoff for this?
It has been my experience to find doctors, lawyers, financial magnates, and other professionals as my main customers. They have the money, and they don't like cheaply made goods.
For the rest of us, including engineers, we can live with more reasonable enclosures, and sometimes find DIY as an effective and fun way to get the same quality sound, without the extended price that is necessary with dealers, follow-up, fancy finishes. This is all well and good, but there is nothing wrong with the expensive route either, IF one can easily afford it, and trust me, many can.
People like me get a sample of the fruits of their efforts, and pretty good deals, usually used, on the rest of the the components that we can't build ourselves. As a hobby, it is not more expensive than electric trains, a small sailboat, or other hobby.
For many hi end designers, it is the challenge of making a better design that keeps us on our toes. While many of us are friendly on this thread, we are still strong competitors with both each other and the rest of the world. We all would like to make the best products possible, and be respected for it. There is not much financial reward as a designer in audio, today.
Why any would nit-pick at this hobby is beyond me, but many here do, without regard to our real interests or feelings of unjust criticism. What is the payoff for this?
John;
You are correct in that people can be irrational about the amount spent on this hobby. When I tell them what I spent they look at me like I'm not sane. Yet a significant percentage of these same folks are car nuts. To them $50K or even $90K is reasonable for a car when a Toyota Corolla will get you there perhaps even more reliably.
My wife and I spend a significant number of evenings practicing what my neighbor calls "active listening" (nice phrase) where the sounds are the entertainment not just background music. I think I got a bargain in terms of return on investment.
Please don't stop what you do, a significant percentage of the performance improvements you help create trickle down to far less expensive equipment.
You are correct in that people can be irrational about the amount spent on this hobby. When I tell them what I spent they look at me like I'm not sane. Yet a significant percentage of these same folks are car nuts. To them $50K or even $90K is reasonable for a car when a Toyota Corolla will get you there perhaps even more reliably.
My wife and I spend a significant number of evenings practicing what my neighbor calls "active listening" (nice phrase) where the sounds are the entertainment not just background music. I think I got a bargain in terms of return on investment.
Please don't stop what you do, a significant percentage of the performance improvements you help create trickle down to far less expensive equipment.
At the risk of coming off as a sycophant, or worse a stalker, this last post from Mr. Curl really summarizes very well the online experience of trying to discuss audio.
john
not that i ever think you would read or answer any statement/question from me
My status at this board is not of that class, that you can do much more than ignore my posts.
But here is a comment to this your thinking:'
By John Curl:
It has been my experience to find doctors, lawyers, financial magnates, and other professionals as my main customers. They have the money, and they don't like cheaply made goods.
For the rest of us, including engineers, we can live with more reasonable enclosures, and sometimes find DIY as an effective and fun way to get the same quality sound, without the extended price that is necessary with dealers, follow-up, fancy finishes. This is all well and good, but there is nothing wrong with the expensive route either, IF one can easily afford it, and trust me, many can.
People like me get a sample of the fruits of their efforts,
and pretty good deals,
usually used, on the rest of the the components that we can't build ourselves.
As a hobby, it is not more expensive than electric trains, a small sailboat, or other hobby.
Enclosure is a necessary thing.
This can be built from
- electrical point of view
or
- estetic point of view
or
- every point of view for maximum electrical concerns + perfectly hi-end looking exclusive design.
It is upto each and every one what we prefer.
And money, tools and time to build plays a part in this, too.
So I agree with you John.
This hobby is not more expensive than other usual hobbies people can do.
True! For example getting and restore vintage old cars ( or old Harley Davison motorbikes )
is one such very expensive and time consuming hobby.
But can give much pleasure in return!
It is actually not the end result, when it is all over, that is most rewarding.
... it is the way to get there ... while working making your effort to get there
😎
not that i ever think you would read or answer any statement/question from me
My status at this board is not of that class, that you can do much more than ignore my posts.
But here is a comment to this your thinking:'
By John Curl:
It has been my experience to find doctors, lawyers, financial magnates, and other professionals as my main customers. They have the money, and they don't like cheaply made goods.
For the rest of us, including engineers, we can live with more reasonable enclosures, and sometimes find DIY as an effective and fun way to get the same quality sound, without the extended price that is necessary with dealers, follow-up, fancy finishes. This is all well and good, but there is nothing wrong with the expensive route either, IF one can easily afford it, and trust me, many can.
People like me get a sample of the fruits of their efforts,
and pretty good deals,
usually used, on the rest of the the components that we can't build ourselves.
As a hobby, it is not more expensive than electric trains, a small sailboat, or other hobby.
Enclosure is a necessary thing.
This can be built from
- electrical point of view
or
- estetic point of view
or
- every point of view for maximum electrical concerns + perfectly hi-end looking exclusive design.
It is upto each and every one what we prefer.
And money, tools and time to build plays a part in this, too.
So I agree with you John.
This hobby is not more expensive than other usual hobbies people can do.
True! For example getting and restore vintage old cars ( or old Harley Davison motorbikes )
is one such very expensive and time consuming hobby.
But can give much pleasure in return!
It is actually not the end result, when it is all over, that is most rewarding.
... it is the way to get there ... while working making your effort to get there
😎
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