syn08 said:
if the metal characteristics changes dynamically with signal/temp, then such a test is valid.
granted this will require a special testing method
Re: Re: Re: Fuses you say?
just a thought.
what if you stagger the fuse values?
1A, 2A, 3A, 4A
also, how is 2@5A or 8@1.25A?
just a thought.
what if you stagger the fuse values?
1A, 2A, 3A, 4A
also, how is 2@5A or 8@1.25A?
Re: Re: Re: Fuses you say?
Wow! If the difference is so big, that must be one spectacularly incompetently designed amp!
Jan Didden
KBK said:
Wow! If the difference is so big, that must be one spectacularly incompetently designed amp!
Jan Didden
I've tried the buss bar vs fuse several times but have never heard any difference. Not to say someone else's experience might be different. Still like to be there sometime and join in the fun 
Re: Re: Re: Fuses you say?
Who said 2nd harmonic is music to our ears? 😀
According to the photo you attached, that way of wiring the fuses has for sure the side effect of increasing the loop area between the power lines. Which would increase the magnetic induction (due to the variable high current) and hence a significant increase in the 2nd harmonic component. Correct wiring would be to keep the +/- power lines twisted together (or worst case perpendicular to any signal wiring, in particular the NFB and NFB return). If this is not possible, at least the loop area should be minimized. The wiring to the fuse block should be as short as possible and the wires should be tied together.
KBK said:
Who said 2nd harmonic is music to our ears? 😀
According to the photo you attached, that way of wiring the fuses has for sure the side effect of increasing the loop area between the power lines. Which would increase the magnetic induction (due to the variable high current) and hence a significant increase in the 2nd harmonic component. Correct wiring would be to keep the +/- power lines twisted together (or worst case perpendicular to any signal wiring, in particular the NFB and NFB return). If this is not possible, at least the loop area should be minimized. The wiring to the fuse block should be as short as possible and the wires should be tied together.
Non-linearities of fuses in power rails matter on such low frequencies so a GNF correct them relatively well.
1audio said:
1audio said:
As I understand it, you sent a preamp to people whose ears you trusted to give give you real world feedback as to what it sounded like. Their comments correlated with your experience.
To what God do you have to bow to to not accept this approach and perform some other ritual that is more politically correct? If the feedback answers your questions, put it out and see what the world thinks. Jump through stupid PC hoops and you'll release defendable garbage.
MikeBettinger said:
Actually, the problem isn't PCness, exactly, but a mistrust of phenomenology which appears to be less sophisticated than conventional measures.
There is no reason to think that an awful lot of vocabulary can't be connected to objective measures.
Words like 'dark', 'bright', 'uncoloured', and so forth, as used when referring to musical sound almost certainly have objective correlates in measurements. It's been done with violins, so why can't it be done with amps and speakers?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fuses you say?
It was done, as a first attempt, in this specific manner, for a specific reason.
I did not know how closely matched the fuses are in general, and I did not know how much instantaneous current the amplifier would draw. In an effort to minimize the possible interactions, with respects to evening them out - this was the first solution applied. I even said words to that effect in the original post. More correct will follow.
It was also one heck of a lot easier -to see if it was worth pursuing at all. Theoretically and speculatively it's on good grounds..and the initial shot appears to sonically bear it out.
syn08 said:
It was done, as a first attempt, in this specific manner, for a specific reason.
I did not know how closely matched the fuses are in general, and I did not know how much instantaneous current the amplifier would draw. In an effort to minimize the possible interactions, with respects to evening them out - this was the first solution applied. I even said words to that effect in the original post. More correct will follow.
It was also one heck of a lot easier -to see if it was worth pursuing at all. Theoretically and speculatively it's on good grounds..and the initial shot appears to sonically bear it out.
Originally posted by FrankWW
Words like 'dark', 'bright', 'uncoloured', and so forth,
as used when referring to musical sound
almost certainly have objective correlates in measurements.
It's been done with violins,
so why can't it be done with amps and speakers?
----------------------------------
I agree that there might be, and for sure is some time, a correlation.
Correlation is verfied in controlled tests.
There are matematical/statistical methods to validate even subjective preceptions..
In wine testing, for example, they use a bunch of people with experience from tasting wines.
When 10 out of 20 people will prefer one wine (blindly), we have a valid test.
============================================
This can be done same way in audio.
1. A number of people (blindly) listen and tell/compare/categorize one/two pieces of sound.
2. One person make several listenings and tell/compare/categorize one/two sound.
3. The keyword here is: REPEAT.
4. A scientifically VALID test should be repeatable.
5. When VALIDATION is above a certain value, we can say there IS A CORRELATION.
... problems are:
1. The so called subjectivists (golden ears) does NOT want or need some form of validation.
2. Either because they are already 100% sure 😀
3. Or they are so unsure, they dare not to make the test.
They might fail 😀
4. Objectivists, non-believers humans can hear any difference,
find NO REASON to validate something they are 100% sure not is true 😀 😀
😎
.... and there we are .. all good subjectivist fellows + all good objectivist fellows
... still left in guessing and guessing and opinions and thinking
and still very much in the dark regarding actual knowledge of sound perceptions
Lineup Sweden August 2008
Words like 'dark', 'bright', 'uncoloured', and so forth,
as used when referring to musical sound
almost certainly have objective correlates in measurements.
It's been done with violins,
so why can't it be done with amps and speakers?
----------------------------------
I agree that there might be, and for sure is some time, a correlation.
Correlation is verfied in controlled tests.
There are matematical/statistical methods to validate even subjective preceptions..
In wine testing, for example, they use a bunch of people with experience from tasting wines.
When 10 out of 20 people will prefer one wine (blindly), we have a valid test.
============================================
This can be done same way in audio.
1. A number of people (blindly) listen and tell/compare/categorize one/two pieces of sound.
2. One person make several listenings and tell/compare/categorize one/two sound.
3. The keyword here is: REPEAT.
4. A scientifically VALID test should be repeatable.
5. When VALIDATION is above a certain value, we can say there IS A CORRELATION.
... problems are:
1. The so called subjectivists (golden ears) does NOT want or need some form of validation.
2. Either because they are already 100% sure 😀
3. Or they are so unsure, they dare not to make the test.
They might fail 😀
4. Objectivists, non-believers humans can hear any difference,
find NO REASON to validate something they are 100% sure not is true 😀 😀
😎
.... and there we are .. all good subjectivist fellows + all good objectivist fellows
... still left in guessing and guessing and opinions and thinking
and still very much in the dark regarding actual knowledge of sound perceptions
Lineup Sweden August 2008
If you would just go back and read the VERY FIRST MESSAGE that started the 'Blowtorch' thread, you would see that we get verification from many independent listeners located across the planet. That should be enough to show that we are doing a lot of things right, and this is why we continue to do it. What I am here to do is to help those who wonder how on earth I got this successful with a preamp design, how to do it themselves, if they will only listen to my advice. Kind of pointless, isn't it? What do I get out of it? More success as an audio designer? Mostly I have done it to convey what we have learned over the decades, and to learn from others, in turn, who have something useful to contribute, and many here do. Others just criticize for no good reason.
John,
Your contributions and your competence are recognized by all here, no question
And criticizing is *always* done for good reasons, although they may not appear good reasons for the one not agreeing to it.
For example, I strongly believe, but cannot prove, that Lineup will not be able to hear differences with or without a fuse, or 4 fuses, or whatever, in a properly conducted test of the *sound only*.
However, I cannot proof it, so his 'report' stands as if it is somehow factual. And I realise he may be completely honest in this.
So, I cannot proof its wrongness, but I also don't want to be perceived as if I accept it. The only recourse I have is to now and then make clear that I don't agree.
That is the power of anecdotes. People that like to believe them treat them as gospel, sceptics have no way to expose them.
You're not the only one here that is frustrated. Still, isn't audio a great field 😉 ?
Jan Didden
Your contributions and your competence are recognized by all here, no question
And criticizing is *always* done for good reasons, although they may not appear good reasons for the one not agreeing to it.
For example, I strongly believe, but cannot prove, that Lineup will not be able to hear differences with or without a fuse, or 4 fuses, or whatever, in a properly conducted test of the *sound only*.
However, I cannot proof it, so his 'report' stands as if it is somehow factual. And I realise he may be completely honest in this.
So, I cannot proof its wrongness, but I also don't want to be perceived as if I accept it. The only recourse I have is to now and then make clear that I don't agree.
That is the power of anecdotes. People that like to believe them treat them as gospel, sceptics have no way to expose them.
You're not the only one here that is frustrated. Still, isn't audio a great field 😉 ?
Jan Didden
Many people the world around has reported flying saucers, even alien contact.
Winnowing out hoaxers, there is still a substantial lot truly and honestly convinced about what they saw. Some even do try to pass the Gospel.
All scientific evidence (and this **must** be taken respectfully seriously) points against that.
So, Is some truth out there...?
I for one, am hard to get convinced, at least with the evidence at hand.
So much for the acustic signature of mains fuses or other birds of similar feather.
Rodolfo
PD. And of course many hoaxers make good money with flying saucers...
Winnowing out hoaxers, there is still a substantial lot truly and honestly convinced about what they saw. Some even do try to pass the Gospel.
All scientific evidence (and this **must** be taken respectfully seriously) points against that.
So, Is some truth out there...?
I for one, am hard to get convinced, at least with the evidence at hand.
So much for the acustic signature of mains fuses or other birds of similar feather.
Rodolfo
PD. And of course many hoaxers make good money with flying saucers...
May I repeat a question which no-one has answered yet?
Has anyone bypassed their preamp entirely and listened? If so, did you achieve Nirvana? "No preamp" is as transparent as that block gets, and if indeed that's your limiting factor, this simple test will demonstrate it.
Has anyone bypassed their preamp entirely and listened? If so, did you achieve Nirvana? "No preamp" is as transparent as that block gets, and if indeed that's your limiting factor, this simple test will demonstrate it.
A friend of mine has a Lyra Connoisseur and reports that his system sounds *much* better with it, than without. Kind of counter intuitive.
SY said:
My experience is that you get better sound quality with a good pre-amp than with no pre-amp.
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