Bob Cordell said:
To say that asymmetrical LTP input is same good as complementary-symmetrical is a common wrong point of view of many circuit designers (e.g. Self), who have never analyzed JFET complementary-differential input stages in deep, and who always kept CCS source biasing in their analysis.
Eureka
Hi KBK,
While I was drinking a beer in my favorite local pub (Hoppe, Amsterdam) I was rethinking about your comment about "directional interconnects". As we all know, music is AC, so electrons (and holes) go hence and forth, right?. Now, suppose that the electrons have a preference to move in the forward direction (btw, they are absolutely right in doing so) and don't feel happy to move backwards, then this stubborn behavior of these obstinate particles will produce a lot of even harmonic distortions, right? As we also know, for a long time, even harmonics are highly appreciated by the community of the golden ears. So this might perfectly explain why "directional interconnects" have such amazing properties. EUREKA!
This still left a minor problem, how to get such piece of ****, sorry, I mean cable, oops hiccup, my apologies, I mean interconnect of course, as most of this beautiful stuff, hiccup, is mass produced in China.
Cheers
Edmond.
Hi KBK,
While I was drinking a beer in my favorite local pub (Hoppe, Amsterdam) I was rethinking about your comment about "directional interconnects". As we all know, music is AC, so electrons (and holes) go hence and forth, right?. Now, suppose that the electrons have a preference to move in the forward direction (btw, they are absolutely right in doing so) and don't feel happy to move backwards, then this stubborn behavior of these obstinate particles will produce a lot of even harmonic distortions, right? As we also know, for a long time, even harmonics are highly appreciated by the community of the golden ears. So this might perfectly explain why "directional interconnects" have such amazing properties. EUREKA!
This still left a minor problem, how to get such piece of ****, sorry, I mean cable, oops hiccup, my apologies, I mean interconnect of course, as most of this beautiful stuff, hiccup, is mass produced in China.
Cheers
Edmond.
Re: Eureka
Mmmm...
Wouldn't care to substantiate that claim, would you?
se
Edmond Stuart said:
Mmmm...
Wouldn't care to substantiate that claim, would you?
se
Edmond,
Your silly post adds nothing to this thread. Your insult to KBK are completely uncalled for.
I am sorry that you have so little imagination that you cannot conceive of the possible existence of directional effects in cables. It's really not hard. Try thinking about two facts:
a) Metal rectifiers. Please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_rectifier
and notice that rectifiers can be made from a junction of copper and copper oxide. Now, do you think it is *possible* that there are junctions of copper and copper oxide in a piece of copper wire?
b) Musical signals are not symmetrical. It has been show that in at least some circumstance some listeners (probably not you) can detect the absolute polarity of specific signals.
If you put these two facts together, it is not such a stretch to conceive that maybe, just *maybe* there could be small directional effects in cables that could create audible results.
But instead you prefer to insult people who have better hearing capabilities than you do. Why?
Your silly post adds nothing to this thread. Your insult to KBK are completely uncalled for.
I am sorry that you have so little imagination that you cannot conceive of the possible existence of directional effects in cables. It's really not hard. Try thinking about two facts:
a) Metal rectifiers. Please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_rectifier
and notice that rectifiers can be made from a junction of copper and copper oxide. Now, do you think it is *possible* that there are junctions of copper and copper oxide in a piece of copper wire?
b) Musical signals are not symmetrical. It has been show that in at least some circumstance some listeners (probably not you) can detect the absolute polarity of specific signals.
If you put these two facts together, it is not such a stretch to conceive that maybe, just *maybe* there could be small directional effects in cables that could create audible results.
But instead you prefer to insult people who have better hearing capabilities than you do. Why?
Inter-bundle rectification of copper wire has never been demonstrated to my satisfaction. Several attempts to create the effect have ended in failure, not to say with more effort one might be able to.
Well said, Charles, but be careful. You don't have many friends around here, but I just got Ed Oxner to join. How about that?
Hi Charlie,
To make rectifiers, you need more than copper oxide alone.
Furthermore, I find it disgusting and a bloody shame that some unscrupulous businessmen try to make money from innocent and ignorant souls.
Cheers,
Edmond.
To make rectifiers, you need more than copper oxide alone.
Furthermore, I find it disgusting and a bloody shame that some unscrupulous businessmen try to make money from innocent and ignorant souls.
Cheers,
Edmond.
Edmond, can you read?
"Metal rectifiers consist of washer-like discs of different metals, either copper (with an oxide layer to provide the rectification) or steel plated with selenium, interspersed with aluminium discs (which were often of a larger size, to provide cooling)."
Are you going to try to convince us that your wire has no copper or no copper oxide? Either way, I think you are going to have a difficult time....
As far as your "disgust" regarding "unscrupulous businessmen", save your tears for some real criminals. I know of many cable manufacturers who check the directionality (by a listening test) of each spool before making the cables. They do *not* advertise this fact, so what is their motive? You imply a rip-off, when it is actually the opposite. They spend extra time and money to make a better sounding product, yet *don't* advertise the fact (presumably so as not give away their secrets to their competitors).
"Metal rectifiers consist of washer-like discs of different metals, either copper (with an oxide layer to provide the rectification) or steel plated with selenium, interspersed with aluminium discs (which were often of a larger size, to provide cooling)."
Are you going to try to convince us that your wire has no copper or no copper oxide? Either way, I think you are going to have a difficult time....
As far as your "disgust" regarding "unscrupulous businessmen", save your tears for some real criminals. I know of many cable manufacturers who check the directionality (by a listening test) of each spool before making the cables. They do *not* advertise this fact, so what is their motive? You imply a rip-off, when it is actually the opposite. They spend extra time and money to make a better sounding product, yet *don't* advertise the fact (presumably so as not give away their secrets to their competitors).
Charles Hansen said:
No.
Q: Do you have an idea of how thick the copper oxide layer has to be in order to provide a barrier that would make the electrons think twice before tunneling through?
A: Walter H. Brattain, Rev. Mod. Phys. 23, 203 - 212 (1951) A pretty well known chap, isn't it?
Q: Do you have an idea of how such an oxide layer was (and still is) prepared?
A: Google. Red hot copper to react with oxygen over several hours.
Charles Hansen said:
"Many" ???? Do they unspool it first? Wire is usually sold in bulk at the 1000's of feet. Presumably the user is left to rediscover the correct direction.
I assume that Charles and Scott speak about different cables and different method of packaging and shipment. Both according to their professional experience and field of work 😉
Yes, we should just leave it at that. I know of no cable for any engineering use that is sold with a prefered direction in this sense.
Charles Hansen said:
It's not quite that simple.
Current will readily flow (once above the forward voltage) from copper to copper oxide, but not from copper oxide to copper.
Think about that for a moment.
That means that in order to create a rectifier, you need copper, copper oxide, and then something other than copper. That's why copper oxide rectifiers aren't simply copper and copper oxide. Otherwise, you end up with something which doesn't want to conduct in either direction.
I don't see what the asymmetry of music signals has to do with it.
Maybe, if one if the two facts wasn't so overly simplistic that it overlooked something rather critical to the argument.
se
True story (names withheld): I was doing some work at a major cable and wire manufacturer in California about 10 years ago. I had lunch with the general manager, a very diligent fellow. He related to me that one of their clients was an audio cable purveyor, one that I think is particularly egregious in his false claims, but whose name everyone here would recognize instantly. His cables are routinely given rave reviews in S'phile and the other comic books.
In any event, the audio guy built a meter, the workings of which he would not disclose, which supposedly told him the right "direction" for the wire. He did exactly what Hugo suggested, took a foot or two off the reel and stuck it on his meter. The cable/wire manufacturer was very impressed, but had no idea what the audio guy was measuring. It was particularly surprising to him because the bulk of their business was in areas outside of audio where the requirements are much more critical.
I asked him if he had tried cutting some lengths off a reel, numbering them, and marking one end or the other randomly (but keeping track) to see if the audio guy could do the same measurement consistently. Remember, this was a supposedly objective, instrumented measurement of "directionality."
I think you all know the punchline.
In any event, the audio guy built a meter, the workings of which he would not disclose, which supposedly told him the right "direction" for the wire. He did exactly what Hugo suggested, took a foot or two off the reel and stuck it on his meter. The cable/wire manufacturer was very impressed, but had no idea what the audio guy was measuring. It was particularly surprising to him because the bulk of their business was in areas outside of audio where the requirements are much more critical.
I asked him if he had tried cutting some lengths off a reel, numbering them, and marking one end or the other randomly (but keeping track) to see if the audio guy could do the same measurement consistently. Remember, this was a supposedly objective, instrumented measurement of "directionality."
I think you all know the punchline.
SY said:
Ah! It was you who had told me that amusing little anecdote. I'd been scratching my head for the past half hour or so trying to remember who the hell it was. 😀
se
I really don't *know* whether this has an effect in the audio realm, where the cables are relatively short in wavelength, but imperfect cables, like those made by Earth bound manufacturers, have impedance variations along their physical length. I'm talking about the basic wire structures made by machines, like coaxial cable as an example. Anybody who has had to make accurate phase or delay measurements at hundreds of MHz and above knows about the importance of the cables attached to the TDR or the network analyzer. Even moving a cable that has a dense woven shield will change the impedance characteristics. That can be and is easily measured and shown.
If you also consider that many cable installations not only carry the desired audio signal but other unwanted signals like RFI, it's conceivable that any cable imperfections can affect the RFI applied to an amplifier of any kind, with possible undesired effects. That's just from the RF side.
It's also common practice to be concerned about IMD caused by the metallic junctions found in connectors used for various kinds of wireless services. This also has been measured and information on this can be found in Google.
Again, how much of this can be directly translated to audio signals, I don't know. But few of us live in environments that are entirely free of radio emissions.
If you also consider that many cable installations not only carry the desired audio signal but other unwanted signals like RFI, it's conceivable that any cable imperfections can affect the RFI applied to an amplifier of any kind, with possible undesired effects. That's just from the RF side.
It's also common practice to be concerned about IMD caused by the metallic junctions found in connectors used for various kinds of wireless services. This also has been measured and information on this can be found in Google.
Again, how much of this can be directly translated to audio signals, I don't know. But few of us live in environments that are entirely free of radio emissions.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.