John, the person who started this thread, Darry, did it because he wanted to learn and gather knowledge about this - to him - special and unique design. I cannot recall him ever critisizing your design despite the fact that his - at that time - proposed partial schematics/ideas about the course you took in designing the CTC, were even neglected. Just for the record.
Hi John,
My comment is valid for the Blowtorch.
When designing and building this design, you still exercised these principles. There had to be a cutoff point or it would never have gotten past the prototype, or proof of concept stage.
Best, Chris
My comment is valid for the Blowtorch.
When designing and building this design, you still exercised these principles. There had to be a cutoff point or it would never have gotten past the prototype, or proof of concept stage.
Show me where I have ever criticized this design - ever. I have asked questions for the purpose of learning. My latest post did not suggest you set the bar lower, on the contrary. I was hoping to comment on the design / manufacture process.
I really think you believe I am trying to question this design. Your comments appear to suggest that I am happy with an iffy design. That is slightly insulting actually, and certainly not true. I mostly agree with your approach and support your efforts. You have an odd way dealing with people who are not attacking you John.
Best, Chris
Anatech, it is because you questioned the putting out of extra effort for small rewards that I commented. Don't take it personally, I just had to put things in perspective.
Darry started out innocent enough, BUT this thread did not stay that way with other contributions, almost immediately. That is when I started contributing to this thread.
Darry started out innocent enough, BUT this thread did not stay that way with other contributions, almost immediately. That is when I started contributing to this thread.
Hi John,
Fair enough. Putting things into context was exactly what I was attempting to do.
I was not questioning your decisions at all. Just pointing out that there is a cut off where you determine the effort is worth it or not. This covers everything to from the composition of screws and washers to the finish on the faceplate.
-Chris
Fair enough. Putting things into context was exactly what I was attempting to do.
I was not questioning your decisions at all. Just pointing out that there is a cut off where you determine the effort is worth it or not. This covers everything to from the composition of screws and washers to the finish on the faceplate.
-Chris
Chris, I think almost EVERYTHING is important, and I hope this thread can allow subtle factors to be brought forth. I know that many here do not subscribe to this, but I do, as do other successful high end designers. I might be able to support new, but subtle ideas, where other threads might not allow it.
Someone who shall remain nameless clobbered the sound on my AV system (separate and distinct from my main stereo rig). In the process of undoing the damage this afternoon, I was reminded of yet another reason to use big hunks of aluminum:
The Hafler DH-200 used a steel chassis. The stray flux from the power transformer makes the bloody thing hum at 60Hz. Stack three or four DH-200s together and there's a background hum not unlike the pervasive hum you hear in a room with a lot of fluorescent lights. You don't really notice it until it goes away...at which point you realize how annoying it really was. Not too much of a problem when you've got velociraptors stampeding through the room, but a bitch if you're trying to listen to a quiet passage on a record.
Nelson,
Yes, aluminum is cheap relative to most other metals...but it can still take a chunk out of your wallet when you're trying to get a decent chassis made...
Grey
The Hafler DH-200 used a steel chassis. The stray flux from the power transformer makes the bloody thing hum at 60Hz. Stack three or four DH-200s together and there's a background hum not unlike the pervasive hum you hear in a room with a lot of fluorescent lights. You don't really notice it until it goes away...at which point you realize how annoying it really was. Not too much of a problem when you've got velociraptors stampeding through the room, but a bitch if you're trying to listen to a quiet passage on a record.
Nelson,
Yes, aluminum is cheap relative to most other metals...but it can still take a chunk out of your wallet when you're trying to get a decent chassis made...
Grey
OT - Parasound Halo JC 2
Somewhat off topic but Stereophile Magazine just did a 6 page review of the Parasound Halo JC 2 Line Preamplifier by John Atkinson.
March 2008 issue.
www.stereophile.com
Somewhat off topic but Stereophile Magazine just did a 6 page review of the Parasound Halo JC 2 Line Preamplifier by John Atkinson.
March 2008 issue.
www.stereophile.com
Nelson Pass said:
It's sure cheap, and cheap to machine/cut/bend/finish relative to just about any other metal on this planet.
It also makes your life easier to have a load of thermal mass, as everything becomes somewhat more stable. The only drawback of thermal mass would IMHO be the warm up time, but that can be severely reduced by using a power resistor to help heating in the beginning.
Magura 🙂
john curl said:
Well, in this part of the world, the price per kWh is close to 0.50usd, so most here don't like that idea 😀
Magura 🙂
Good grief - gold plated KWh!!
And here, we are thinking that $0.15/Kwh (Australia) is expensive!
What does it cost in the US?
And here, we are thinking that $0.15/Kwh (Australia) is expensive!
What does it cost in the US?
It is the price you pay for a stable preamp. Besides, a 1/2 hour warmup should do about the same thing. It is up to the user, besides much is being made of a large thermal capacity, over a small thermal capacity. The significant power generating devices are thermally attached to the TOP of the preamp, so they remove the heat quickly and the unit stabilizes to a few degrees within a few minutes. Think about what happens, when you turn on a preamp in a plastic box! Change of component temp. over time? You bet!
People drive SUV's, and exotic cars without as much concern as you are showing about a preamp.
By the way, I personally don't leave my power amp on, so I have to wait for it to warm up, and that takes 15-30 minutes as well, unfortunately.
People drive SUV's, and exotic cars without as much concern as you are showing about a preamp.
By the way, I personally don't leave my power amp on, so I have to wait for it to warm up, and that takes 15-30 minutes as well, unfortunately.
Hi John,
I agree that many small things are important. I also recognize that there are things that may make a difference, but that that difference is swamped out by other things.
At some point in the pursuit of perfection, we have to sit back and acknowledge that any more changes will not make measurable or audible (6th sense even) difference to the performance. This is not a comment in your direction, but rather a nod to snake oil sales people. After all, the fly that just took off in another room may make a far greater difference than some purported circuit / material changes.
I do not believe that leaving equipment on and running all the time is intelligent. I'll agree with you that things should settle down in 1/2 hour. If they don't, they never will. All my test gear takes about 1/2 to settle in (the readings are valid after 10 ~15 minutes, but they are only guaranteed to be accurate after 1/2 hour).
Reference oven oscillators may take 2 days to settle into their extremely accurate error limits, and a calibrator like a Fluke 5520A may require a couple hours after being on the road. Entirely reasonable considering the worst case limits. Audio gear is okay after 1/2 hour or it's busted (or badly designed) in my long experience.
-Chris
I agree that many small things are important. I also recognize that there are things that may make a difference, but that that difference is swamped out by other things.
At some point in the pursuit of perfection, we have to sit back and acknowledge that any more changes will not make measurable or audible (6th sense even) difference to the performance. This is not a comment in your direction, but rather a nod to snake oil sales people. After all, the fly that just took off in another room may make a far greater difference than some purported circuit / material changes.
I do not believe that leaving equipment on and running all the time is intelligent. I'll agree with you that things should settle down in 1/2 hour. If they don't, they never will. All my test gear takes about 1/2 to settle in (the readings are valid after 10 ~15 minutes, but they are only guaranteed to be accurate after 1/2 hour).
Reference oven oscillators may take 2 days to settle into their extremely accurate error limits, and a calibrator like a Fluke 5520A may require a couple hours after being on the road. Entirely reasonable considering the worst case limits. Audio gear is okay after 1/2 hour or it's busted (or badly designed) in my long experience.
-Chris
Hi John, all,
I thought I would deal with this on it's own ...
Lastly, many "high end" power amplifiers are constructed without any type of effective fault protection at all. A person who does leave their stuff running is taking a terrible risk by leaving their gear running unattended. Amps don't generally burn (they can make rotten smelling smoke), but speakers can sometimes burst into actual flames. I have seen the results of this on more than one occasion. Personally, I think this should be a question for your home insurance that negates the loss due to fire portion. I feel strongly about this as it is in fact a safety issue.
People leave things running largely due to a high end myth. It's time we became a little more responsible for our actions and words. Bryston was covering up design faults with their support of this misinformation.
-Chris
I thought I would deal with this on it's own ...
Often, power companies "play" at night. Therefore , large switching transients may occur at those times. Also, lightning surges can place huge transients on your power lines. They can happen at any time, but why make it certain that they will nail your gear if this occurs?
Lastly, many "high end" power amplifiers are constructed without any type of effective fault protection at all. A person who does leave their stuff running is taking a terrible risk by leaving their gear running unattended. Amps don't generally burn (they can make rotten smelling smoke), but speakers can sometimes burst into actual flames. I have seen the results of this on more than one occasion. Personally, I think this should be a question for your home insurance that negates the loss due to fire portion. I feel strongly about this as it is in fact a safety issue.
People leave things running largely due to a high end myth. It's time we became a little more responsible for our actions and words. Bryston was covering up design faults with their support of this misinformation.
-Chris
The CTC Blowtorch preamp should be left on continually. It doesn't even have an off-on switich. That is part of the design philosophy.
However, I do disconnect the phono power supply, unless I need it, and I STILL have to wait 1/2 hour or more, before it really sounds right.
For FM or CD, I have to wait for the Marantz 10 to warm up, but it only seems to take a few minutes to sound pretty good.
If your system cannot resolve this warmup time, so be it.
However, I do disconnect the phono power supply, unless I need it, and I STILL have to wait 1/2 hour or more, before it really sounds right.
For FM or CD, I have to wait for the Marantz 10 to warm up, but it only seems to take a few minutes to sound pretty good.
If your system cannot resolve this warmup time, so be it.
Hi John,
Was there a specific reason the CTC Blowtorch needed to be left on, or was it more a marketing decision?
I am truly curious.
Thanks, Chris
Was there a specific reason the CTC Blowtorch needed to be left on, or was it more a marketing decision?
I am truly curious.
Thanks, Chris
I can see worrying about the AC draw of an amplifier, particularly if it is class A...but worrying about a preamp? Jeez.
Grey
Grey
anatech said:
You are correct, Chris. I am the Calibration Lab manager at work, and the minimum warm-up time for the Cal stack (Fluke 5200A, 5215A, 5220A, 5450A, 343A, 2190A/Y2003, and Tek TG501) before calibrating anything in our temperature/humidity controlled area is 1 hour. You can see the calibrator voltages creep around a little bit during the first half-hour, then settle down to their specified tolerances. Any unit undergoing calibration is also warmed up in accordance with its own calibration manual, but never less than 15 minutes.
It is only logical that a suitable warm-up time should be applied to high-end audio equipment as well, if you want the best sound of which it is capable.
Best Regards, Chuck Hansen
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