agree wholeharted to that. I think it was becoming a lost art. Hearing about the activities of some good recording engineers (Keith 'JJ' Johnson, Bernie Grundman and others) at the AES and RMAF last year makes me believe it is slow turning around. These guys get fed up being misused to record stuff that mainly sound loud and compressed.
and
My conclusion is that CD technology often gets blamed for somebody else's incompetence or downright sloppyness.
I agree 100%. My son is studying recording engineering at college and he has some CD analysis programs on his Apple - quite an eye opener. He is also a very good musician and it looks like the kids in college are aware of the problems of over compression - maybe there is a renaisance coming in recording. One day.
The absolute worst offender we found: REM 'Accelerate' - even he could not believe the level of compression - wall of sound (make that a brick wall). IIRC the dynamic range was under 10dB
Another one we analyzed that was terrible was a Jazz CD was 'Love is Many Splendid Thing' by the Roma Trio. Engineer was Domenico Di Gregoria (shame on you Domenico for ruining some very good music, or letting the producer force into scrunching the sound up - and to think I paid $15 for that)
Stunning recording - Yo Yo Ma 'Songs of Joy and Peace'. Not entirely my kind of music, but great recording with an appropriate amount of compression -great sound staging. Recording engineer Richard King. No doubt Yo-Yo Ma won't have any over compression compression b.s. Diana Krall CD's we also looked at were good.
Good mike placement I heard is something you have to understand technically before you can become an artist at it. To quote my son, a mic is is a 'musical instrument'.
and
My conclusion is that CD technology often gets blamed for somebody else's incompetence or downright sloppyness.
I agree 100%. My son is studying recording engineering at college and he has some CD analysis programs on his Apple - quite an eye opener. He is also a very good musician and it looks like the kids in college are aware of the problems of over compression - maybe there is a renaisance coming in recording. One day.
The absolute worst offender we found: REM 'Accelerate' - even he could not believe the level of compression - wall of sound (make that a brick wall). IIRC the dynamic range was under 10dB
Another one we analyzed that was terrible was a Jazz CD was 'Love is Many Splendid Thing' by the Roma Trio. Engineer was Domenico Di Gregoria (shame on you Domenico for ruining some very good music, or letting the producer force into scrunching the sound up - and to think I paid $15 for that)
Stunning recording - Yo Yo Ma 'Songs of Joy and Peace'. Not entirely my kind of music, but great recording with an appropriate amount of compression -great sound staging. Recording engineer Richard King. No doubt Yo-Yo Ma won't have any over compression compression b.s. Diana Krall CD's we also looked at were good.
Good mike placement I heard is something you have to understand technically before you can become an artist at it. To quote my son, a mic is is a 'musical instrument'.
Bonsai said:
Other excellent recordings that really make the CD shine: any Ricky Lee Jones album before 1996 or so.
One of the worst: the latest Metallica (forgot the title) where even fans protested and demanded a better version (the version for Guitar Hero was much better, and fans wanted that one to be released).
One reason why SACD and DVD-A often sounds better than CD is that titles are recorded with more care for preservation of dynamic range.
You want another eye-opener? Check out this YouTube movie:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
Jan Didden
Mr. Curl,
I'm making integrated amp, preamp and power amp in one box.
What is the best way to transfer signal from preamp output to power amp input inside the same box? The distance is about 30cm.
I'm thinking of
1. Cable pair (one signal, one ground)
2. Twisted single cables (one signal, one ground)
3. Coaxial cable, like 75ohm coaxial (ground shielding)
I'm making integrated amp, preamp and power amp in one box.
What is the best way to transfer signal from preamp output to power amp input inside the same box? The distance is about 30cm.
I'm thinking of
1. Cable pair (one signal, one ground)
2. Twisted single cables (one signal, one ground)
3. Coaxial cable, like 75ohm coaxial (ground shielding)
Bonsai said:
I've mentioned them before but the small lable "Waterlily" has some totally uncompressed recordings that are technically amazing. OTOH I find the dynamic range on some of the Reference Recordings CD's unlistenable in a normal environment. Soft passages are lost in even a reasonably quiet room. At least in my experience.
lumanauw said:
David,
I guess Mr Curl will chime in when he sees fit, but I would think that the answer here also depends very much on how your (signal) grounding is arranged, how the signal grounding for the preamp and power amp are combined.
Jan Didden
Hi, Janneman,
The grounding for preamp and power amp are the same, they are from the same transformer (with step down regulator for the preamp section)
I've seen all of those 3 used in commercial products. But which one is the best for 30cm connection?
I have saw a single signal connection (without accompanying grounding cable) implemented in integrated amp (from preamp section to power amp section), but I think this one is wrong.
The grounding for preamp and power amp are the same, they are from the same transformer (with step down regulator for the preamp section)
I've seen all of those 3 used in commercial products. But which one is the best for 30cm connection?
I have saw a single signal connection (without accompanying grounding cable) implemented in integrated amp (from preamp section to power amp section), but I think this one is wrong.
I would probably use some kind of shielded cable. It is just too noisy inside your box to do otherwise, I should guess.
janneman said:
I'm sure you know this, just want to add that as magnetic tape ages it looses it's dynamic range. So often when they go back and do remasters from the original tape it sounds compressed. I've often compared the same recording on the original CD release and subsequent remasters done years later. The remasters often sound somewhat lifeless in comparison. Attempts to correct this loss probably also affect sound quality.
The best CD I have of Procol Harum's "Grand Hotel" is the original CD release. This has been remastered a lot and even the Japanese pressing is not that good. The Friday Music one for $9.00 is the one to buy now, but still doesn't compare to the orginal Crysalis CD print. The original LP is even better.
That is not to say that there isn't a lot of sloppy engineering going on also.
It is impossible to make an exact decision, BUT it should be SHIELDED. There are shielded twisted pairs, also. There are double shielded twisted pair cable, etc.
lumanauw said:
I would second ( third?) Jan and Mr Curl saying it depends
with control of the circuit design, case gnding, PS sheilding you should be able to estimate the EMI "threats" inside your box
if you're really concerned you could make your power amp input balanced impedance differential at a low <1KOhm impedance and just use twisted pair - it would be a very unusual situation inside a single box that would call for additional electrostatic sheilding at audio frequencies
while star quad is a more esoteric "audiophile" possibility - even flat ribbon cable with
gnd-sig-gnd-sig-gnd
costruction gives very good performance in most instrumentation internal wiring
any of the magnetic feild rejecting geometries mentioned can be combinend with an overall electrostatic sheild ground with one end grounded but is likely overkill
Too much talking here, and almost no results. Frankly speaking, I do not think too highly of it.
CAT 7 cable here, each twisted pair is shielded. You can get 0.5m patch cable for not too much money, and you get 4 twisted pairs (four balanced channels, or you may parallel them, whatever). The connector contacts are gold plated.john curl said:
Tino
PMA said:
You live on another planet.
A sound card with better than 120dB dynamic range and less than 200nV noise (including 50Hz, 100Hz, etc... without DUT shielding). Opamps in this sound card are for sure manufactured in the Alpha Centauri system.
Been wondering that since shortly before your trip to CES. Seems we've lost track of the original premise of this thread.
Peace,
Dave
Peace,
Dave
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