In this instance I have to strongly support Andrew in drawing attention to severe mis-information about UK electrical suppies vis a vis safety.
I am An E.E. which counts for zero in this (or any other!) context except that I do understand and use UK IEE regulations.
To my certain knowledge ALL installation of power in the UK are supplied using loop rings with a continuous total current capacity of 30 amperes.
The main breaker (or wired fuse in very old installations) is rated at 30A-32A.
Any indvidual connection is protected by a plug-top fuse of max 13A.
As Andrew states, this is to protect the wiring NOT the equipment. Fuses can be derated to 1A, 2A and 5A for lower load situations.
Not wishing to get embroiled in any "Sonic" element of this thread, I would urge any UK reader to absolutely NOT replace a plug-top fuse with a short.
30+ amps (this is 7.2kilowatts!) in any flex wiring, as Andrew has well explained, is a certain fire risk.
I am An E.E. which counts for zero in this (or any other!) context except that I do understand and use UK IEE regulations.
To my certain knowledge ALL installation of power in the UK are supplied using loop rings with a continuous total current capacity of 30 amperes.
The main breaker (or wired fuse in very old installations) is rated at 30A-32A.
Any indvidual connection is protected by a plug-top fuse of max 13A.
As Andrew states, this is to protect the wiring NOT the equipment. Fuses can be derated to 1A, 2A and 5A for lower load situations.
Not wishing to get embroiled in any "Sonic" element of this thread, I would urge any UK reader to absolutely NOT replace a plug-top fuse with a short.
30+ amps (this is 7.2kilowatts!) in any flex wiring, as Andrew has well explained, is a certain fire risk.
Sigurd Ruschkow said:
I must be dense today, so care to enlighten me? Why would we want the dielectric constant of wire insulator to be as close as possible to air?
Aside of this, it seems it's not the bleached cotton affecting the sound, but the bleaching process itself (using chlorine). Indeed, chlorine is responsible for the silverware tarnishing. So, if one would develop a new chemistry for a bleaching process, you think it will sound better?
There are a number of chlorine ion neutralization methods. Are you aware of any experiments of dipping bleached cotton insulated silver wire in a chlorine neutralization solution and then listening to the new, chlorine free, sound?
AndrewT said:
For goodness sake, quite deliberately I did NOT give ANY ADVICE on this matter!
Regards,
Bobken said:
Please, I beg you! No one mention safety grounds!!!
PFHZITTTT!!! oops, I can't finish this comments! I just inadvertently electrocuted myself! Darn, my mother warned me not to take such reckless chances.... AAARRRGGHHH!
syn08,
Any material which an electric current or an electric field passes through causes distortions. The air is most linear (in this regard) but many materials as insulators are highly unlinear and should be be avoided in audio, however this fact by no means prevents a wide usage, for instance in capacitors.
Lumba Ogir said:
Yes, Lumba.
People are proud of their teflon PCB boards.
What they do not realize is that not even DuPont Teflon or whatever can compete with air.
That is, if the air is reasonably clean from electromagnetic fields.
Using any PCB board material for insulation,
we also get something called Creeping Currents.
This is acutally same fenomena as when lightning strikes down.
Lightning will follow any surface, any path it can find.
And avoid air!!!!!!
And the electrostatic discharge will have its path.
I use air insulated approach frequently for my circuits.
I am too lazy to make some PCB circuit etchings.
So just direct solder = hard wire.
With very short pins, legs, leads to my resistors + transistors.
As I recall it in one very 'hi-fi' pre amplifier I have heard of,
John Curl Blowtorch Preamplifier 😎
there is much hardwiring used and not too much Plastic Cicuit Boards = PCB
>>>>> Lineup - Audio Master and Professor in Electronics <<<<<
Lumba Ogir said:
Now I am really confused.
- Who/what and how is distorted when a current passes through a material? Are we back to the "wire diode" concept that was discussed ad nauseum here and elswhere? And even so, what has the current conduction in silver to do with the silver wire insulator?
- Who/what and how is distorted when an electric field pases through a material? I understand we are talking about wires, not capacitors.
- Who/what told you that air (and I'm not talking about a controlled pressure, temperature and humidity atmosphere) is the most linear dielectric?
If you are talking about the capacitance between two adjacent wires, then I must say I couldn't care less. Whatever the dielectric, placing critical wiring in wrong (relative and/or absolute) positions will create problems - and this has to do with Mr. Maxwell induction phenomena and very little to do with the dielectric insulator material.
Otherwise, while keeping the wires apart, separated by air, the equivalent capacitance is essentially controlled by the air spacing and dielectric constant and not by the insulator dielectric. Think of three capacitors in series (insulator-air-insulator and figure out which one is the smallest.
back on main topic.
Blowtorch CTC pre amplifier.
From a quick overall view, I noticed these following details:
1. The layout is clean. There is plenty space between sections.
Not so crowded as commercial amplifiers/autocars can be.
2. I see no power transformer.
Supposing this amp is using an external Mains Power Supply unit.
3. The amplifying corner are four boards. 2 x 2 pcb.
I would guess each 'floor' is for left vs. right channel.
I would guess two of the boards are for provide the power.
Very clean and regulated power sources.
And the other two are for amplifying signal.
-----
Lineup 29th of July 2008. Sweden
I attach what image I refer to.
The bird's eye view of Blowtorch inside.
Blowtorch CTC pre amplifier.
From a quick overall view, I noticed these following details:
1. The layout is clean. There is plenty space between sections.
Not so crowded as commercial amplifiers/autocars can be.
2. I see no power transformer.
Supposing this amp is using an external Mains Power Supply unit.
3. The amplifying corner are four boards. 2 x 2 pcb.
I would guess each 'floor' is for left vs. right channel.
I would guess two of the boards are for provide the power.
Very clean and regulated power sources.
And the other two are for amplifying signal.
-----
Lineup 29th of July 2008. Sweden
I attach what image I refer to.
The bird's eye view of Blowtorch inside.
Attachments
Syn08 -
instead of trying to scientifically convince you (which I cannot do as I have not made any scientific theoretical work on the matter nor do I plan to spend years doing this) that air is the best sounding dielectric, I would like you to make an experient with cables:
get some of your preferred wire and use different insulation materials for ex cotton, Teflon, some other plastic, and make the wire go inside that insulation (not that easy but doable),
and make a 1m long interconnect using the exact same connectors,
and then make a listening test and do a thorough listening test and write down what you can hear.
Scientific proof via experiments? Sure, why not? It is made all the time in for ex physics but they also have or make a theoretical proof that validates the experiment or vice versa. Sometimes, this theory or experiment is prooved to be inaccurate and so we start all over again.....
Regarding your chemistry-like questions, I would not say anything about them until I have tested these insulators in a listening test.
Sigurd
instead of trying to scientifically convince you (which I cannot do as I have not made any scientific theoretical work on the matter nor do I plan to spend years doing this) that air is the best sounding dielectric, I would like you to make an experient with cables:
get some of your preferred wire and use different insulation materials for ex cotton, Teflon, some other plastic, and make the wire go inside that insulation (not that easy but doable),
and make a 1m long interconnect using the exact same connectors,
and then make a listening test and do a thorough listening test and write down what you can hear.
Scientific proof via experiments? Sure, why not? It is made all the time in for ex physics but they also have or make a theoretical proof that validates the experiment or vice versa. Sometimes, this theory or experiment is prooved to be inaccurate and so we start all over again.....
Regarding your chemistry-like questions, I would not say anything about them until I have tested these insulators in a listening test.
Sigurd
syn08 said:
Lineup -
you might be correct that hardiwiring is the best sounding "PCB" but for me it is highly impractical for all but the most simple designs. And as you say the air should be reasonably clean of electromagntic fields which is not often the case today.
I would also like to add that the environment should be reasonably vibration free, too.
So, then what is the next best material? I would say that Teflon is a candidate. FR4 probably is not.
Teflon has another advantage over hardwiring and FR4 and that is that Teflon is a pretty "dead" material vibration wise.
Still, it is also about how one implements the above. Implementation is vital. Even a hardwired amp can sound not optimal and a FR4 amp can sound great!
Sigurd
you might be correct that hardiwiring is the best sounding "PCB" but for me it is highly impractical for all but the most simple designs. And as you say the air should be reasonably clean of electromagntic fields which is not often the case today.
I would also like to add that the environment should be reasonably vibration free, too.
So, then what is the next best material? I would say that Teflon is a candidate. FR4 probably is not.
Teflon has another advantage over hardwiring and FR4 and that is that Teflon is a pretty "dead" material vibration wise.
Still, it is also about how one implements the above. Implementation is vital. Even a hardwired amp can sound not optimal and a FR4 amp can sound great!
Sigurd
lineup said:
two wires and/or PCB traces will have some capacitance. The capacitance can be accommodated in the design.
The variation in capacitance with signal and external forces/effects cause the audio problem.
Most dielectric have at least one drawback due to variation in capacitance, whether it's a signal level or time domain distortion.
It appears that air and vacuum have the least of these distortions.
I think we can discount vacuum from domestic/audio equipment, leaving air as likely to be the best practical dielectric compared to ALL the others.
An ultra thin electrical insulation layer with air as the substantial gap filler will probably get close. That insulation-air-insulation case quoted earlier is feasible and may well offer a cheap and easy way to P2P assemble the "best performing" circuits.
That aerial view certainly shows good use of air for many of the interconnections.
The variation in capacitance with signal and external forces/effects cause the audio problem.
Most dielectric have at least one drawback due to variation in capacitance, whether it's a signal level or time domain distortion.
It appears that air and vacuum have the least of these distortions.
I think we can discount vacuum from domestic/audio equipment, leaving air as likely to be the best practical dielectric compared to ALL the others.
An ultra thin electrical insulation layer with air as the substantial gap filler will probably get close. That insulation-air-insulation case quoted earlier is feasible and may well offer a cheap and easy way to P2P assemble the "best performing" circuits.
That aerial view certainly shows good use of air for many of the interconnections.
cliffforrest said:
Hi,
This first statement is not entirely correct, but whatever, I also did NOT and do NOT recommend that anyone should remove plug fuses in the UK, either, even if like myself they have insurance cover for electronic developments commercially.
In my immediate location we have several ring-main circuits which are each covered by 16A breakers, usually around 3 or 4 ring mains per dwelling. On reflection, this seems to be a much safer situation overall than provided by single 32A protection for an entire property.
The lighting circuits are all 6A, and the only 32A breakers used (and I have just checked with several other neighbours) are specifically for water-heaters & cookers etc.
However, I have also now checked with two brothers living in other areas, and they both have 32A breakers covering a single full ring-main in their dwellings.
This may be a regional matter, but from a brief enquiry it appears that providing installations are carried out *within* the maximum recommended protection, there may be some choice for individual contractors and dwellings. Whatever, only a few years ago my own installation was fully inspected by the authorities following an extension to the dwelling (with additional wiring being necessary), and there was no comment made at that time so they must have been satisfied with this practice.
When I very carefully *AVOIDED* recommending (or even suggesting) to any others that they should copy what "I" had done with the plug fuse, I also clearly pointed out that the connecting cable would then be at risk, but that in taking "ME" into the same risk situation as almost everyone else in the world, this was something "I" was content with.
I find it very sad that people seem to be misreading/misinterpreting/misquoting my remarks in this respect, and that they ignore the several other cautious safety-related comments of mine since I started to write about fuses.
Regards,
houses burning down
ps,
ring mains in UK residences are limited by area covered and number of outlets on each ring.
My own house has five power rings and one further ring which is dedicated to the listening room. All of these are fed from individual 32A RCBOs, except the listening room which is on a 25A MCB.
The security and lighting are fed from 5 off 6A MCBs rated B or C type.
The high power spurs are fed from 16A to 40A MCBs depending on the individual load. This ensures I meet all current Building Regulations (Scotland) requirements.
note, I did not say protect the wiring.
ps,
ring mains in UK residences are limited by area covered and number of outlets on each ring.
My own house has five power rings and one further ring which is dedicated to the listening room. All of these are fed from individual 32A RCBOs, except the listening room which is on a 25A MCB.
The security and lighting are fed from 5 off 6A MCBs rated B or C type.
The high power spurs are fed from 16A to 40A MCBs depending on the individual load. This ensures I meet all current Building Regulations (Scotland) requirements.
hi bobken,
i did say i would not carry the plug fuse safety issue further, but i now read that you are continually saying that others are wrong on this matter, where clearly you have made the mistakes here.
you said yourself that you looked at neibours instalation and the phoned your brother, all this to prove a point? would it not be easier to take advice and accept that you dont know didley sqat about domestic wiring circuits in the UK. because if you had read my post #7561, there you had a golden oppertunity to edit with very clear warnings about safety at least.
you chose to ignore all this, my opinion is that sidestepping the issues here is plainly wrong.
i still think that your post #7552 should be edited, or better still deleated, mayby this should be a moderators decision
i did say i would not carry the plug fuse safety issue further, but i now read that you are continually saying that others are wrong on this matter, where clearly you have made the mistakes here.
you said yourself that you looked at neibours instalation and the phoned your brother, all this to prove a point? would it not be easier to take advice and accept that you dont know didley sqat about domestic wiring circuits in the UK. because if you had read my post #7561, there you had a golden oppertunity to edit with very clear warnings about safety at least.
you chose to ignore all this, my opinion is that sidestepping the issues here is plainly wrong.
i still think that your post #7552 should be edited, or better still deleated, mayby this should be a moderators decision
float said:
Hi float and anyone else interested in using Transzorbs in the UK,
Further to my earlier response to this and to some subsequent comments from others, please do NOT follow any advice (or perhaps curt instructions) to select any Transzorb with a rating of "275v".
If you do, you will have a situation where you are effectively almost 'crowbarring' across the L & N mains wires, as the device will imediately fail shorted!
The only two relevant voltage specs which you will usually see quoted in catalogues do not point out (and neither does the original GSI data-book in the available voltage-rating hierarchy relating to the devices) that these voltages are peak voltages, NOT 'RMS'.
In fact, in spite of some intimation to the contrary, there is no "275v" Transzorb made, and the 2 devices I referred to are your only choices for this type of device for use in the UK.
Following any such uninformed advice, even if you select the next higher-rated device from 275v, i.e. the 1.5KE350A which is listed as 299v, this has a Reverse Stand-off Voltage of 211v *RMS* and a minimum breakdown voltage of merely 235v *RMS*.
I am sure I don't need to emphasise the stupidity of using something like this directly across your mains.
Also, don't confuse these Transzorbs with VDRs, MOVs or any other such parts often recommended for use in a similar manner.
They are very different in effect, being orders of magnitude better than these alternatives in clamping effects, which is what they are primarily used for of course, but it is not possible to show all of the relevant graphs I have indicating this, on this Forum.
Their sharp avalanche characteristics, phenomenal surge-handling capabilities, extremely fast response time, and low 'on' resistance give them superb electrical performance, and I guess this is why they have no observable adverse affects on the sound, which is what concerns us.
Finally, for what it is worth, I don't tell lies (although being human, I may make the occasional mistake), I don't talk about matters which are beyond my own experience, and I have a great regard for the well-being of others, which is largely why I go to a lot of trouble in trying to assist others on this Forum.
Regards,
burbeck said:
Quote// "I also did NOT and do NOT recommend that anyone should remove plug fuses in the UK, either "
Quote// "In my immediate location we have several ring-main circuits which are each covered by 16A breakers"
I give up!
hi bobken,
still side stepping the issue here is your quote from post #7552
"I have never had a dog which would chew through such mains leads (and I doubt it would have saved him from 'frying' if the plug fuse was still installed) nor does my wife mow the carpets with our outdoors lawn-mower, so I concluded that there was no great risk in dispensing with this wretched plug fuse, so for my own domestic use I no longer install fuses in wall plugs."
DIYers read this this stuff bob.
I can absolutly say that the vast majority of the UK instalations will have 30Amp or 32Amp breakers or HRC fuses or even rewirable fuses. on the final ring main circuits. your imediate location matters not.
i realy dislike all this, i would like to get on with audio stuff, but you seem so aloof and condecending on this issue. i did offer to discus the matter out of this thread.
still side stepping the issue here is your quote from post #7552
"I have never had a dog which would chew through such mains leads (and I doubt it would have saved him from 'frying' if the plug fuse was still installed) nor does my wife mow the carpets with our outdoors lawn-mower, so I concluded that there was no great risk in dispensing with this wretched plug fuse, so for my own domestic use I no longer install fuses in wall plugs."
DIYers read this this stuff bob.
I can absolutly say that the vast majority of the UK instalations will have 30Amp or 32Amp breakers or HRC fuses or even rewirable fuses. on the final ring main circuits. your imediate location matters not.
i realy dislike all this, i would like to get on with audio stuff, but you seem so aloof and condecending on this issue. i did offer to discus the matter out of this thread.
AndrewT said:
are you being deliberately obtuse?
275Vac is effectively 389Vpk.
Omitting the ac from the voltage is a futile attempt to try to prove your point. The point being that you get annoyed if anyone tries to correct any errors.
Bobken said:
Hi Bob, thanks for being very clear on this, your recommended 1.5KE440CA part will be on my next Farnell order, along with an ETA breaker - although I can't remember if I put fuses in my power amp rails or not.
Hope you've got flameproof skin mate
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