When reading the the physics behind plastic deformation because of applied tension, the plastic phase is ended the moment that the tension gets below the elastic to plastic deformation border, so a “cooling down” period does hardly seem to apply.
Hans
I can clearly see why psychologists consider audiophiles to be neurotic.
Once bitten, there seems no way out of this hell for the afflicted.
Once bitten, there seems no way out of this hell for the afflicted.
That’s diametrically to what women like to think:
Men are like tiles, once ...... , you can walk on them forever. 😀
Hans
Not all audiophiles are neurotic. However, roughly 1/3 of them are highly neurotic.
The biggest problem that most audiophiles in general have when it comes to judging equipment is that they don't check: If a change to their system makes a noticeable difference in sound they assume it must be better, rather than A/B checking back and forth a few times over a few days. IMHO They could use some training to correct for that failing.
This sounds like fun. How about making a list of members here (most of them are audiophiles without a doubt 🙂) who in your subjective opinion (ie pretty worthless to the rest of us 😉) are "highly neurotic"?
I can in no way understand this enthusiasm for vinyl, which has earned us these pages of endless debate.
Especially when I see the partisans of the cold objectivity of the measuring numbers taking part.
Even with the the red book format, it is quite difficult to tell the difference before / after a good ADC-DAC system. And these differences are not of such an order that essential musical information is lost.
It's not perfect, but it improves step by step with technical advances: 24-96, audiophiles adjustments of the analog parts ;-)
This is not the case with a studio analog tape recorder, which colors the sound in an obvious way to any trained ear. So, let's not even talk about vinyl, you will give it to me.
It seems to me that there is a great confusion between nostalgic pleasures and an objective analysis of the indisputable superiority of digital, both as regards the preservation of musical works over time as their distribution to the public without deterioration.
Especially when I see the partisans of the cold objectivity of the measuring numbers taking part.
Even with the the red book format, it is quite difficult to tell the difference before / after a good ADC-DAC system. And these differences are not of such an order that essential musical information is lost.
It's not perfect, but it improves step by step with technical advances: 24-96, audiophiles adjustments of the analog parts ;-)
This is not the case with a studio analog tape recorder, which colors the sound in an obvious way to any trained ear. So, let's not even talk about vinyl, you will give it to me.
It seems to me that there is a great confusion between nostalgic pleasures and an objective analysis of the indisputable superiority of digital, both as regards the preservation of musical works over time as their distribution to the public without deterioration.
It seems that many people do not enjoy the cruel reproduction of music, as it was produced, with all its faults which are inherent in human nature.
Is it therefore a nostalgia for the vagueness that the analogic introduces, which always leaves a part to the imagination ?
On the other hand, I also don't understand the aggressiveness I see towards the approach of people like Markw4. It is an approach which seems necessary to me: to try, even in a slightly blind way, because we do not know everything about everything, to erase these imperfections or, at least to make them more pleasant to the ear.
And, for those who are not sensitive to the need to polish the varnish of our cars as perfectly as possible, in whom does it interfere with traveling on our roads?
Is it therefore a nostalgia for the vagueness that the analogic introduces, which always leaves a part to the imagination ?
On the other hand, I also don't understand the aggressiveness I see towards the approach of people like Markw4. It is an approach which seems necessary to me: to try, even in a slightly blind way, because we do not know everything about everything, to erase these imperfections or, at least to make them more pleasant to the ear.
And, for those who are not sensitive to the need to polish the varnish of our cars as perfectly as possible, in whom does it interfere with traveling on our roads?
I use a CD player, streaming (Topping D10) and vinyl.
I just enjoy the vinyl more. This is the thing about audio - you need to just relax and enjoy it.
But a lot of the discussion on this thread is technical and I respect that as well - there’s a lot to be learnt here.
The problem with a lot of modern recordings (Fourplay, Diana Krall etc) is that they are over engineered (@billshurv will probably pull me up over Furtwangler on this one because I find it a bit too agricultural for my liking ) and just too ‘polite’ and sanitized. A lot of this modern stuff is done with different takes that are then mixed down to create these perfect soundscapes (just listen to the strings on some of the Krall recordings). Nothing like that takes place on the 1950’s Ella recordings and you can hear it - very natural.
There was a picture of one of the guys at RMAF with a T shirt emablaxoned with ‘For the love of god, no more Diana Krall’. Says it all!
I just enjoy the vinyl more. This is the thing about audio - you need to just relax and enjoy it.
But a lot of the discussion on this thread is technical and I respect that as well - there’s a lot to be learnt here.
The problem with a lot of modern recordings (Fourplay, Diana Krall etc) is that they are over engineered (@billshurv will probably pull me up over Furtwangler on this one because I find it a bit too agricultural for my liking ) and just too ‘polite’ and sanitized. A lot of this modern stuff is done with different takes that are then mixed down to create these perfect soundscapes (just listen to the strings on some of the Krall recordings). Nothing like that takes place on the 1950’s Ella recordings and you can hear it - very natural.
There was a picture of one of the guys at RMAF with a T shirt emablaxoned with ‘For the love of god, no more Diana Krall’. Says it all!
Last edited:
Well, Lee Scratch Perry wouldn't have been able, in the early days, to indulge his fascination for microtonality if he hadn't had records to slow down.
So do lot of people. Now, the question i tried to up is: Why ?
On my side, and you can understand why, I cannot enjoy vinyl, because I was always faced with the deterioration it causes to the (my) original mix.
Now, the question is: What can-we do to "enjoy the digital more" ?
Do we have to add a circuit in our DACs, adding response curves modifications, distortions, surface noise, clicks and pops ?
Please be indulgent to the poor sound engineers. They do not have the power to transform Diana into Aretha. But all, all, they do the best they can with a lot of love. And not so often freedom.
YouTube
Last edited:
I think Mark is neurotic, he is forever posting things and then deleting them, 😉 He does a lot of editing too, almost forgot
Last edited:
You forget editing them, too. Sometimes editing means starting over, hence there will be some deletions. Writing is work, but it has to be done.
Last edited:
It is still a matter of tip mass (equivalent) and vertical tracking force. The recommendation for a "rest time" were inspired by increased record wear when instantly replaying records (I'd assume quite short snippets) several times.
Using a really low tip mass pickup in combination with a low vertical tracking force should reduce the plastic flow risk.
As usual, doing sound experiments is based on a clear hypothesis/question to be investigated; playing a test sweep two times gives a data point, doing it more often gives additional data points and combining that with different rest times will give a more complete picture.
We should keep in mind that a lot of these experiments were done by professional research departments that got help by suppliers of blank vinyl discs and other records for test purposes.
Given the different formulations used for the vinyl (some patented so at least a minimum set of informations available, others not, so informations are very limited) and the numerous variables involved it is IMO not so easy to do experiments which results could be generalised to all cases.
Today there a lot of new kids on the block being interested in vinyl record playback and still so-called dj-pickups were offered with vertical tracking forces as high as 5 gr. Is somebody telling them about the high risk to ruin quickly the quite expensive new vinyl that they've bought?
@Hans Polak,
wrt wet play; due to the considerations from above, I'm hesitant to recommend wet play for all.
Otoh I'm using it for at least 35 years and have not observed any negative side effects. For statistical reasons it seems to be unlikely that all my records were just made from that only one vinyl compound that does not react negatively, but ......
I've observed reduced noise and reduced music from the tip and up to now complete cleaning by a good record cleaner (still thinking a ultrasonic one gives the best result) with suction action made the records even playable in dry conditions which isn't IMO a good idea.
The negative effects reported for some cartridges could be true, if excessive amounts of fluids are used. Although the alcohol lowers the surface friction, the curvature of the record allows for a substantial height of the fluid possibly entering the cartridge body.
Again I can only comment for a limited number of different cartridges but have never observed negative effects.
Using a really low tip mass pickup in combination with a low vertical tracking force should reduce the plastic flow risk.
As usual, doing sound experiments is based on a clear hypothesis/question to be investigated; playing a test sweep two times gives a data point, doing it more often gives additional data points and combining that with different rest times will give a more complete picture.
We should keep in mind that a lot of these experiments were done by professional research departments that got help by suppliers of blank vinyl discs and other records for test purposes.
Given the different formulations used for the vinyl (some patented so at least a minimum set of informations available, others not, so informations are very limited) and the numerous variables involved it is IMO not so easy to do experiments which results could be generalised to all cases.
Today there a lot of new kids on the block being interested in vinyl record playback and still so-called dj-pickups were offered with vertical tracking forces as high as 5 gr. Is somebody telling them about the high risk to ruin quickly the quite expensive new vinyl that they've bought?
@Hans Polak,
wrt wet play; due to the considerations from above, I'm hesitant to recommend wet play for all.
Otoh I'm using it for at least 35 years and have not observed any negative side effects. For statistical reasons it seems to be unlikely that all my records were just made from that only one vinyl compound that does not react negatively, but ......
I've observed reduced noise and reduced music from the tip and up to now complete cleaning by a good record cleaner (still thinking a ultrasonic one gives the best result) with suction action made the records even playable in dry conditions which isn't IMO a good idea.
The negative effects reported for some cartridges could be true, if excessive amounts of fluids are used. Although the alcohol lowers the surface friction, the curvature of the record allows for a substantial height of the fluid possibly entering the cartridge body.
Again I can only comment for a limited number of different cartridges but have never observed negative effects.
Last edited:
I imagine you are joking ?
Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Now, if you don't like the way it sound, I imagine some could play with the analog outputs ?
That may very well be part of the reason. Compare a super sharp uninspired 50Mpixel colour picture to a B&W picture made by a professional.
No photoshop, just as it is, but quite often the result is much more artistic.
For me, modern digitally recorded LP’s don’t create the goosebumps that those analogue recorded work of art LP’s can cause for whatever reason. Are these modern LP’s too clean, too loud, to compressed ??
Like the potographer, for making a world class recording you need an artist and not a technician.
Are these extraordinary recording guys of the past all retired ?
Hans
- Status
- Not open for further replies.