CD has never been enough for me. In the beginning, back in the '80's, some engineers really liked CD, but not me. Today, it still is not good enough.
Played a Hans Zimmer vinyl tonight. No LF noise. I suspect most of it was recorded as separate tracks and then mixed. There’s some tremendous bass on the record. I checked a Vangelis vinyl as well with really low bass - no rumble.
I’m satisfied it’s a recording artifact
I’m satisfied it’s a recording artifact
They did eventually in Kingsway hall, but a number of LPs were released with audible rumble on. Vinyl won't go much below 20Hz (I have one record with 16Hz on) but clearly that was enough.
I know someone I can ask about earthquakes though who used to cut records in LA.
Where did-you read I was talking of the multitrack ? Don't-you know what is a solo button and how to use-it during a mixing session ?
Yes, go figure, we all mix the instruments at their mix levels. I don't see the way to do otherwise.
During the early CD times, we recorded and listened with 16 bits 48kHz DACs. even on the solo outputs.
I was not talking about an analog desk while I liked to use an optional ADC+DAC inserted in the listening channel with analog desks.
Why are-you contradicting-me at each of my words in such a crazy way ?
How many sound engineers did you met, that record so far from the peak max on the multitrack ? We just keep the reasonable margin to not take any risk. Especially during live sessions. Fighting with dolbys against the hiss since our beginnings in analog, taking care to mute the tracks during their silences (manually or with noise gates).
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Tourny,
Clearly your experience doesn't count for anything, same as RNM and JC. You really gotta wonder why none of you were found out! 😉 !!
BTY did you ever run into Carol Ornitz?
Clearly your experience doesn't count for anything, same as RNM and JC. You really gotta wonder why none of you were found out! 😉 !!
BTY did you ever run into Carol Ornitz?
Even Dimitri was entitled to his share of critics about his work, from people that had never even seen his last amp. I loved the way he answered. This place is truly unique.
No, I never even heard this name. A recording studio in the USA ?
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I would like so much that we could have the multi tracks contents of the records with their effects, a virtual console and the automation file.
We could redo the balance of our favorite tunes to our tastes, discover all the details. It would be fantastic and very informative.
I'm retired since 10 years, now.
A century in music or movie business ;-)
Big studios and facilities die one after the others faster than Speedy Gonzales.
The last post prod studio where i was the technical manager has been sold two times in between, and i have been told it is dedicated now to some other activity. Very sad. We had a huge volume with a fantastic acoustic dedicated to movie mixes, dubbing and foleys. With another more little studio for TV and editing rooms.
One of my assistants set up 5 large studios and post prod facilities in several places in Paris. He fights like a devil every day against the bankruptcy, unpaid debts, etc.
... RAP and home studios rulez ...
I hope it is not the same in the US.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/equ...cision-ap-analyser-series-12.html#post6017831
Prior, THD+N was considered by R.Cordell as still a useful test. And, it is what our ears are exposed to when listening.
Even though I (and others) have capability to measure to extremely low levels of harmonics with FFT, I would not consider it 100% useful if we are talking about how things will sound.
The noise level sets the lower limit of the dynamic range. As does the ambient noise level of the listening room.
Now dither is interesting as a solution to 16 bit system issues in recording but is it necessary any more with 24 bit? or does it just allow ever greater file manipulation before it becomes audible?
[Waly, spare us the diatribe on dither.] This is a question of the practical benefit to the listener at home. Like some other views on it.
THx-RNMarsh
Prior, THD+N was considered by R.Cordell as still a useful test. And, it is what our ears are exposed to when listening.
Even though I (and others) have capability to measure to extremely low levels of harmonics with FFT, I would not consider it 100% useful if we are talking about how things will sound.
The noise level sets the lower limit of the dynamic range. As does the ambient noise level of the listening room.
Now dither is interesting as a solution to 16 bit system issues in recording but is it necessary any more with 24 bit? or does it just allow ever greater file manipulation before it becomes audible?
[Waly, spare us the diatribe on dither.] This is a question of the practical benefit to the listener at home. Like some other views on it.
THx-RNMarsh
PS.
I want to get to what is the main Audible improvement(s) of 24/96+ over CD.
The hi res 24/96+ unmolested masters from internet sites is soooo much better than CD that I wonder if dither or # of bits or sampling or what makes it so much better that i dont use a CD player any more.
[from LP to CD to Hi-res] It cant be dynamic range. ?
THx-RNMarsh
I want to get to what is the main Audible improvement(s) of 24/96+ over CD.
The hi res 24/96+ unmolested masters from internet sites is soooo much better than CD that I wonder if dither or # of bits or sampling or what makes it so much better that i dont use a CD player any more.
[from LP to CD to Hi-res] It cant be dynamic range. ?
THx-RNMarsh
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Without (generally unavailable) proof that the differences you've observed are solely due to bit depth and sampling rate, there's no apples-to-apples. Same tape, same machinery, same EQ, same everything. I can't even imagine a plausible reason to assume anything like that having happened, especially at different times and in different situations.
If anybody cares to actually test the audibility of Red Book format, make your own "downsample" from your favorite hi-number music sample and compare it on the same system. No other apples-to-apples is remotely likely.
All good fortune,
Chris
If anybody cares to actually test the audibility of Red Book format, make your own "downsample" from your favorite hi-number music sample and compare it on the same system. No other apples-to-apples is remotely likely.
All good fortune,
Chris
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I understand your view. Wondering about what role dither plays in audibility of 16 vs 24, also.
If you make your own Master tapes (I have... 30 ips 1/2 track). And you have a good mastering CD machine (I do) and you have very good ADC and DAC (I do). And really good speakers and headphones (I do). You can tell the differences.
There is actually much larger differences between a master tape and an LP made from it by far.
[IMEx}
THx-RNMarsh
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Do you have the capability to add 16 bit sized dither to a 24 bit file? Audacity might - haven't tried. Maybe that would help answer your question.
I quit defending the superiority of vinyl LPs when I first was able to make a CDR copy that I couldn't distinguish from the LP. Of course, my ears are pretty beat up, but that was decades ago.
All good fortune,
Chris
I quit defending the superiority of vinyl LPs when I first was able to make a CDR copy that I couldn't distinguish from the LP. Of course, my ears are pretty beat up, but that was decades ago.
All good fortune,
Chris
Several comments which answered my question--- Dither to 24bit? - Gearslutz
Yes if going from 32bit float for instance to 24 bit, I apply dither. And yes I can hear a difference. (what exactly i'm hearing and why may be another question) I lately have been using apogee dither but whatever works really.
I've never noticed (heard) quantization errors when NOT using dither on a 24 bit file that has been processed in a 32 bit float environment, but hey, anything is possible.
That said, I can hear the various types of Dithering "flavors" when applying Dither to 16 bit files from 32 bit float (there are three custom dithers I run as batch processes depending on what I feel sounds best for them).
Interesting considering the problems with dithering a floating point process. Aldrich argues that it's almost theoretically impossible since a level-dependent dither is distortion and level-independent dither is insufficient/too much depending on the sample level. Unless I've misinterpreted Aldrich.
Any difference between the 32 bit file and 24 bit file after truncation should also be extremely low in level.
Honestly - if your DAW's application retains at least a 32bit word length through all of its processing and signal chain then does a single truncation to 24bit at the very end prior to output (which is what the one I use does) then it shouldn't be audible in the least against dithering final output to 24bit as any potential distortion from re-quantization to 24bit is indeed below the noise floor of even the best resolved systems out there. Of course quantizing to 16bit is a different matter as the least significant bit in this case is indeed above the noise floor - but with 24bit you have a good bit more nominal dynamic range (i.e. 144dB vs. 96dB).
So - count me in the category of "it doesn't matter" - as long as you're not doing some totally silly levels gain staging up and down and up (i.e. about 80dB worth) and the DAW app you use isn't broken that is.
Of course adding dither at whatever bit level you choose takes about 2 mouse clicks in most systems - so it's not like this will hurt anything either. But people need to pay way more attention to what they're doing with the most significant bits than worrying about the least significant ones imho!!
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Applying dither to anything beyond 16 bit makes no sense at all. It's completely pointless.
Do it if you simply enjoy applying dither. But do not expect to sound any different.
In practical terms, dither at 24 bits is too subtle to make a difference
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I think they have answered that question.... the sound improvement with 24/96+ down load is not related to dither.
That begins to narrow things down.
THx-RNMarsh
Yes if going from 32bit float for instance to 24 bit, I apply dither. And yes I can hear a difference. (what exactly i'm hearing and why may be another question) I lately have been using apogee dither but whatever works really.
I've never noticed (heard) quantization errors when NOT using dither on a 24 bit file that has been processed in a 32 bit float environment, but hey, anything is possible.
That said, I can hear the various types of Dithering "flavors" when applying Dither to 16 bit files from 32 bit float (there are three custom dithers I run as batch processes depending on what I feel sounds best for them).
Interesting considering the problems with dithering a floating point process. Aldrich argues that it's almost theoretically impossible since a level-dependent dither is distortion and level-independent dither is insufficient/too much depending on the sample level. Unless I've misinterpreted Aldrich.
Any difference between the 32 bit file and 24 bit file after truncation should also be extremely low in level.
Honestly - if your DAW's application retains at least a 32bit word length through all of its processing and signal chain then does a single truncation to 24bit at the very end prior to output (which is what the one I use does) then it shouldn't be audible in the least against dithering final output to 24bit as any potential distortion from re-quantization to 24bit is indeed below the noise floor of even the best resolved systems out there. Of course quantizing to 16bit is a different matter as the least significant bit in this case is indeed above the noise floor - but with 24bit you have a good bit more nominal dynamic range (i.e. 144dB vs. 96dB).
So - count me in the category of "it doesn't matter" - as long as you're not doing some totally silly levels gain staging up and down and up (i.e. about 80dB worth) and the DAW app you use isn't broken that is.
Of course adding dither at whatever bit level you choose takes about 2 mouse clicks in most systems - so it's not like this will hurt anything either. But people need to pay way more attention to what they're doing with the most significant bits than worrying about the least significant ones imho!!
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Applying dither to anything beyond 16 bit makes no sense at all. It's completely pointless.
Do it if you simply enjoy applying dither. But do not expect to sound any different.
In practical terms, dither at 24 bits is too subtle to make a difference
----------------------
I think they have answered that question.... the sound improvement with 24/96+ down load is not related to dither.
That begins to narrow things down.
THx-RNMarsh
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The normal practice these days is to record as 24 bits, even though very few converters can do better than 22 bits, then reduce it to 16 bits using dither to produce a file to be used to make a redbook standard CD.
That tends to hide the quantization noise. Of course earlier recordings that were done with 16 bit recorders or even before that when done with the original 9+7 bit ones often did not use dither and counted on the actual noise floor for a dither signal.
Of course there are various "shapes" of dither, signal frequency dependencies and preferences accordingly.
I did write a letter to the editor of one trade publication that was gushing about one manufacturer's claim of a 32 bit reproduction system. Never got a response.
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