John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III

[mmerrill99]

There is one. The blind testing guys are right. The anti-ABX guys are also right.
Seems to me the problem is that the only testing listeners have tried is some form of ABX, which IME is insensitive, as Jakob correctly describes.

To come to some agreement on this issue, a new blind test computer program (for foobar, or otherwise) would have to be written and found to be acceptable by both sets of parties. My own experiments suggest that finding a mutually satisfactory solution should be possible, in theory at least. The big problem is getting a new program in our hands that we can try. If we had such a program, I think the perceptive listener group would find it useful for their own purposes. Here, I am thinking of using it for self-calibration of listening acuity.

If we don't have a good, reliable way to self-calibrate, we are likely to do what humans tend to do which is to become overly influenced by overconfidence bias and think we can hear more than we actually can. It happens. Just as overconfidence bias influence occurs on both sides of some of these arguments we have in this thread.

Can anybody tell me why a blind preference test is not the correct approach & much more like what is done in ordinary, relaxed longterm listening? IMO, the main problem in ABX testing is identifying what specific difference to check for & where in the music to find it - I can give examples of ABX testing & results by a recording engineer who had already established his preference was for high-res (Vs CD) but decided to test this in ABX tests & the difficulty he had in nailing down what to listen for - "eyes will be opened" by this ABX test 😀 😛

 

[scottjoplin]

Well take me for example I have this (apparently rare)
ability to ignore or shut off everything except the goal set forth......if I know there's visual bias or better reviews or more cost involved I can compartmentalize these things so that theyre not a consideration in the final results.
Basically analyzing all the variables mentally without emotion.
It's not really that hard......in fact many times my results are surprising in the sense that I would have thought differently with just an educated guess.

I wouldn't say it was rare to think that

 

[mmerrill99]

You guys talk too much.

Am I in the wrong room? 🙄
YouTube

 

[hhoyt]

I tried all the publicly available freeware ABX applications. Foobar ABX is the most developed. None of them are any more sensitive than it. At least foobar ABX allows one to type in starting and ending times of long files so that short segments can be compared. Also, foobar ABX plays both sample files at the same volume level. Whether or not they come out as level matched depends on the files themselves.

If we are going to measure levels for matched comparisons, in most cases I would probably favor using a perceptual loudness VU meter over RMS, peak, average, or other level measurement methods. The best loudness metering plugins money can buy - and my favourite alternative (for only 9 dollars !) - Production Advice
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.1770-4-201510-I!!PDF-E.pdf

I've found useful correlation using the free Orban meter available at this URL:
Free Orban Loudness Meter — Orban

Howie

 

[mountainman bob]

I wouldn't say it was rare to think that

Thinking it and actually being able to do it are two different things.

 

[Markw4]

Thinking it and actually being able to do it are two different things.

Believing one is actually doing it and actually doing it are two different things.

 

[gpauk]

There is something about that statement that bothers me. I wonder what it could be?

I wonder why no-one is surprised...

 

[mountainman bob]

Believing one is actually doing it and actually doing it are two different things.

😀 Whats to be gained by letting personal bias influence yourself?

Saving face? ......If its my opinion I own it, there’s no one to impress but myself and I must admit I’m pretty hard to impress.

It seems that you’ve relegated to the ‘fact’ that nobody can possibly overcome personal bias even if they know it exists?

 

[waltzingbear]

It is a rather unique application for an oil, the application calls for a low viscosity oil with low shear strength. I've been using Cramolin Blue, but your point is well taken, I'll have to research some...

Howie

I've been using EML for some time that seems to work in that regard fairly well. It was a problem getting it for some time but is now sold by Newark (Farnell) and someone else in one off lots for a reasonable price. (I used to get it by the case from the US distributor)
I would love to have you examine it with your oil background (or was that JN?)

Cheers
Alan

https://www.newark.com/electrolube/eml200f/lubricant-200ml-aerosol/dp/57AC5795?st=EML 200

 

[mountainman bob]

I use this stuff on the boat electronics.....

Works great....it could probably work inside the house even better!

 

[DF96]

It seems that you’ve relegated to the ‘fact’ that nobody can possibly overcome personal bias even if they know it exists?

Two things cause people to be subject to personal bias without realising this:
1. being unaware that such a thing as personal bias exists
2. knowing that it exists but believing that one is immune to it

 

[mountainman bob]

I don’t believe I’m immune to it but the act of consideration basically renders it neutral.

I’m not that deep that my subconscious can’t be communicated with.😉

 

[johnego]

Working on room acoustics is assessed by the degree of successful application. It's never complete. You can always improve.

There are many types of quality facets or aspects. These quality aspects can be divided into two subjective groups: critical and non critical. Each individual can set his own threshold for each of the aspect, beyond which improvement is not considered important anymore for him.

You can decided for yourself if your room acoustic is critical and below your threshold or not. I know how to improve my room acoustic but I know that it is not critical.

Non critical quality aspects are those that can give you amazement, short term impression such as soundstage, intelligibility, clarity, etc. Critical quality aspects are those that can cause enjoyment and those that can cause fatigue/boredom/pain such as <put certain quality aspects here>.

Your project plans for amps and DACs can have specs way beyond audible traits. What good will that do other than bragging rights?

You're most probably right that DAC is not the weakest link here. But I will not be so sure about its audibility threshold before I look into it (at least, I may end up writing my own DSP, something that i wanted to do a long time ago). No bragging rights are to be expected from standard measurement numbers (As I know there exist important things that are missed by current audio authorities). Only, may be, bragging rights from subjective sound quality that hopefully can be perceived by everyone. I have been unsure about this as I found most people were 'deaf' but day by day I get improvements that at the end it might become audible to everyone including the deaf.

 

[Markw4]

It seems that you’ve relegated to the ‘fact’ that nobody can possibly overcome personal bias even if they know it exists?

Depends on the particular bias. Some are easy to overcome if one happens to think to be aware of them. Anchoring is one example of that type.

Other biases are virtually impossible to consciously overcome even if one is aware of them. Hindsight bias might serve as an example of that type.

As one can see, the list of known biases is fairly long. Although some may seem very similar, they can be experimentally shown to be distinct.
List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
Trying to remember to go down the list and check for each one is also becoming more difficult as more are discovered.

Perhaps simpler lists would better serve for starting out:
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions | Psychology Today
Cognitive Bias - Examples, List of Top 10 Types of Biases
The many cognitive biases that screw up everything we do - Business Insider

 

[mmerrill99]

Depends on the particular bias. Some are easy to overcome if one happens to think to be aware of them. Anchoring is one example of that type.

Other biases are virtually impossible to consciously overcome even if one is aware of them. Hindsight bias might serve as an example of that type.

As one can see, the list of known biases is fairly long. Although some may seem very similar, they can be experimentally shown to be distinct.
List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
Trying to remember to go down the list and check for each one is also becoming more difficult as more are discovered.

Perhaps simpler lists would better serve for starting out:
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions | Psychology Today
Cognitive Bias - Examples, List of Top 10 Types of Biases

As I've said many times - how do we suddenly "See the truth" after doing a ABX blind test - do all our biases drop away when we return to sighted listening?
Anyone care to reveal the mechanism at play here?

 

[mountainman bob]

Only, may be, bragging rights from subjective sound quality that hopefully can be perceived by everyone. I have been unsure about this as I found most people were 'deaf' but day by day I get improvements that at the end it might become audible to everyone including the deaf.

What marketing genius that would be......get evenharmonics to endorse your dsp ‘even I can hear the difference!’ @Millions$ 😀

Depends on the particular bias. Some are easy to overcome if one happens to think to be aware of them. Anchoring is one example of that type.

Other biases are virtually impossible to consciously overcome even if one is aware of them. Hindsight bias might serve as an example of that type.

As one can see, the list of known biases is fairly long. Although some may seem very similar, they can be experimentally shown to be distinct.
List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
Trying to remember to go down the list and check for each one is also becoming more difficult as more are discovered.

Perhaps simpler lists would better serve for starting out:
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions | Psychology Today
Cognitive Bias - Examples, List of Top 10 Types of Biases
The many cognitive biases that screw up everything we do - Business Insider

I live in a pretty basic reality, mainly based on my natural surroundings....in tune with nature one might say.
Bias as it exist naturally is to be trusted. Bias thats fabricated in some sort of deep seated conflict within is easily identified and suppressed...... no conflict no bias.

see how easy that is!😀

 

[johnego]

What marketing genius that would be......get evenharmonics to endorse your dsp ‘even I can hear the difference!’ @Millions$ 😀

I was referring to amplifier, not DSP. Evenharmonics believes (i think) that speaker is the weakest link and amplifier is a job done, which is not imho.

About DSP, imagine the benefit of bypassing some critical analog stages, which imho is not yet totally understood (such as the case with amplifier).

 

[PMA]

He is absolutely right. Speakers and room acoustics are the weakest points.

 

[mountainman bob]

I was referring to amplifier, not DSP. Evenharmonics believes (i think) that speaker is the weakest link and amplifier is a job done, which is not imho.

About DSP, imagine the benefit of bypassing some critical analog stages, which imho is not yet totally understood (such as the case with amplifier).

Every amplifier I’ve ever owned had a distinct sound or ‘character’ and matching components is part of system tuning....why not tune with amplifier internals?

The whole ‘this is as good as it’s gonna get’ thing is annoying!
As said it’s limitless......I was told I couldn’t use the speaker xo to tune to the room/lp ? I did and it worked beyond expectation, I only wish I knew enough to tackle tuning a amp to the complete system/room!

This whole dsp thing is just getting rolling.......this is an amazing time to be alive in audio!

 

[scottjoplin]

I only wish I knew enough to tackle tuning a amp to the room!

I don't think anyone knows how to do that, perhaps you've found a USP