IF you want to judge audio electronics, both analog or digital, you MUST have a tweeter on your loudspeakers. It must extend to at least 20KHz without droop. If you do not, then you cannot hear a number of subtle factors that might improve audio sound quality overall.
Like the IM distortion of the tweeter.
THE essential paper on this subject is: Kiryu and Ashihara “Detection of Threshold for tones above 22kHz.” – Convention paper 5401 presented at the 110th Convention, May 12-15 2001, Amsterdam.
The authors presented 13 subjects with a test signal consisting of a 2kHz tone combined with odd order harmonics, both sonic and ultrasonic.
The ultrasonic harmonics were switched on and off at a 2Hz rate.
ALL subjects could discriminate the ultrasonics when the combined signal was presented through a single loudspeaker.
NONE of the subjects could discriminate the ultrasonics when each ultrasonic harmonic was reproduced from a separate speaker.
The style is very impressive done well as its almost entirely anti-ballet. In ballet its about fluid movements of the body, whereas bharatnatyam is a lot of only moving one part or limb with the rest solid. The skill and core control requirements are high to pull it off.
All fine points however, the nature is against those over 50 years old. Hearing loss and agingI would like to get back to what I am primarily interested in: Accurate reproduction of audio performances.
Many here love music, and listening to various varieties of it far more than I do. Just like some people like to drive their autos for fun. However, for the last 50+ years, I have concentrated on making more accurate playback equipment, mostly electronics, but also speakers, both horn and direct radiator, mixing consoles and analog master recorders. I have dipped into everything but digital, and even there I have done a lot of background work. Now what is my point?
IF you want to judge audio electronics, both analog or digital, you MUST have a tweeter on your loudspeakers. It must extend to at least 20KHz without droop. If you do not, then you cannot hear a number of subtle factors that might improve audio sound quality overall. This includes you, Scott Wurcer, and even you, T! Now, I normally listen without a 'tweeter' like you do, e.g. to my Sequerra Met 7's. I only turn on the Wilson's (that go to 20K) and when I put on the ultra tweeter, 40K seldom, because mostly it is uncomfortable to listen through this system unless the sources are pristine, and in general, they seldom are. The same goes for headphones. There are plenty of high quality headphones that are 'forgiving' like Audeze, etc. No, IF you really want to detect differences, you need quality electrostatic headphones like the STAX. Without such a headphone, you will miss out on subtlety. How do I know? Because I was loaned a pair of Audeze headphones ($1000) to evaluate the OPPO 105 headphone stage, when I was consulting with them. Guess what? The Audeze showed nothing wrong, but the STAX revealed the difference between the normal out and the headphone out. That is why I often use the STAX for serious evaluation, though I cannot be comfortable with them most of the time. The circuits were very similar, BUT the headphone amp loaded the final IC's too much, and it became audible.
Now, there is nothing wrong with listening without a tweeter or using planar headphones, IF you just want to enjoy the music, but don't be surprised if others detect differences in their systems that have a more extended frequency range, and low IM as well.
The absolute capability of the aging ear appears to secondary to having extended bandwidth from the speakers present. This is my experience at least. I made the Oppo tests when I was in my early 70's. Still I could hear differences through the STAX headphones, but not the Audeze or several others.
The absolute capability of the aging ear appears to secondary to having extended bandwidth from the speakers present. This is my experience at least. I made the Oppo tests when I was in my early 70's. Still I could hear differences through the STAX headphones, but not the Audeze or several others.
It's because the differences you speak about are actually in the range around 5 kHz. I have listened to Stax Lambda and Omega II, Audeze LCD 3, and Sennheiser HD800. The HD800 has the most perceived detail of all of them, in my opinion. It's got a bump in frequency response near 4-6 kHz, this seems to give that hyper-detailed perception. It can be tamed with EQ in that same range.
Years ago I did tests with a friend and files that had all content above 10 kHz removed and no one could tell the difference (blind).
Couldn't edit any longer but meant to type 20 kHz not 10.
Hyperacusis?Well, I can only talk for me, I tested my ears 2 days ago: I cut at 12kHz.
Some years ago, I tried to add a tweeter to my big system. I did not enjoyed the little difference (for me, I was 50), despite I carefully adjusted the phase.
Like the IM distortion of the tweeter.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/121e/2aa46ca079d09dc7cb5de91d3aad2867b9fe.pdf
Almost anyone can make a similar experiment at home. CCIF 19+20kHz tone reproduced through a single wide range driver or system with a tweeter and a good crossover (well above 1kHz). Warning: Keep the level low not to destroy the tweeter!!. 19 and 20kHz tones will be inaudible for most, 1kHz IM tone is well audible.
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This is long winded way of saying that wrt 01, image width and location is more defined and precise and depth/layering is more defined and precise in the 02 version, and time/depth information deliberately altered/worsened in the 06 version wrt 02 but subjectively nicer/more fun than 01. This all due to changes in nature of system intrinsic noise and is to be expected, the key is in controlling/defining this system noise, there is physiologically correct/benign system noise (02) and there is system noise according to taste (03). Like I have said this system noise variability is nothing new actually, what is new is understanding of what is 'good' noise and what is 'bad' noise, and how to control and define such system noises.
Personally I think you are going in the wrong direction here but it is your research. Not many people can hear differences, but if one can, how do you know that he will prefer your champion?
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/121e/2aa46ca079d09dc7cb5de91d3aad2867b9fe.pdf
Almost anyone can make a similar experiment at home. CCIF 19+20kHz tone reproduced through a single wide range driver or system with a tweeter and a good crossover (well above 1kHz). Warning: Keep the level low not to destroy the tweeter!!. 19 and 20kHz tones will be inaudible for most, 1kHz IM tone is well audible.
Please note, this was NOT an ABX test.
All this is very confusing to me. With a crossover at, let say 10KHz, and apart the IM produced by the amp itself, what can produce an IM signal in the medium speaker when you add the tweeter ? The Back EMF ? (oh, an acronym again ? ;-)Almost anyone can make a similar experiment at home. CCIF 19+20kHz tone reproduced through a single wide range driver or system with a tweeter and a good crossover (well above 1kHz). Warning: Keep the level low not to destroy the tweeter!!. 19 and 20kHz tones will be inaudible for most, 1kHz IM tone is well audible.
Adding a tweeter to my main system, that cut at 16kHz, although my old ears cut at 12KhZ, i can hear a difference that I dislike. it sound more 'hifi', less natural.
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Yes and we do not want possible amplifier IMD to be added to the tweeter, that's why the crossover helps, and it also prevents HF 19 and 20kHz to get into midwoofer. Simple test. If it is a tweeter IMD, one will hear 1kHz from the tweeter. If it is an amplifier, one will hear it from the midwoofer. Simple as ABC, daily testing practice.
I am slumming it with my Koss ESP/950, but they do a good job for the money. And just for Bonsai the FR curve (done by Tyll some years back) which shows that, although down a bit in level is DOES go to 10Hz.
Was this done with a HATS?
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/121e/2aa46ca079d09dc7cb5de91d3aad2867b9fe.pdf
Almost anyone can make a similar experiment at home. CCIF 19+20kHz tone reproduced through a single wide range driver or system with a tweeter and a good crossover (well above 1kHz). Warning: Keep the level low not to destroy the tweeter!!. 19 and 20kHz tones will be inaudible for most, 1kHz IM tone is well audible.
I want to try this on my speakers. I suspect the B&W’s will fare less well than the KEF’s
All Tyll's measurements were done with the same dummy head as far as I can tell. That is what makes his archive of measurements so useful.
I hope he is enjoying his retirement pottering around in his van.
I hope he is enjoying his retirement pottering around in his van.
It is not the technical aspect that confuse-me, but the psycho acoustic one.Yes and we do not want possible amplifier IMD to be added to the tweeter, that's why the crossover helps, and it also prevents HF 19 and 20kHz to get into midwoofer. Simple test. If it is a tweeter IMD, one will hear 1kHz from the tweeter. If it is an amplifier, one will hear it from the midwoofer. Simple as ABC, daily testing practice.
In my case, a tweeter was added with a12dB/oct passive filter. Air coil, good film caps. Cut at 16kHz (go figure). The tweeter itself (had a FR at ~4KHz, attenuated by 4dB.
I doubt any listenable Back EMF component, that could be produced by the tweeter, could be injected in my medium horn, attenuated itself by more than 10dB.
I doubt too that the tweeter itself could produce, at listenable levels enough IM under its FR to spoil the result.
I doubt that the added charge of the tweeter can lead my current feedback amplifier to produce much more IM with it than without.
I'm not allowed by my doctor to can ear anything above 12kHz (see my avatar).
Why do I hear a difference ? And not a difference in distortion, but in tonal balance, that I dislike.
I would like to add that the main change I noticed with my old age losses of audibility is that HF components in the ordinary considered audible range (20 000), that are now above my audibility threshold, is felt as disagreeable and unnatural in my hifi system ... and not in real life sounds.
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Thanks. Experience says universal detection and universal preference when applied to systems. Application to loopback recordings is demonstrating cable differences that are readily and predictably implemented.......cables are dynamics control devices and I am yet to hear one that does not have some kind of signature.Personally I think you are going in the wrong direction here but it is your research. Not many people can hear differences, but if one can, how do you know that he will prefer your champion?
Why not cables in a range of defined sounds or moods and at sensible cost....neutral or silver or gold or detailed or natural or laid back etc etc etc....it's perfectly possible and without the usual cable vendor nonsense explanations and nonsense prices.
Not all the recordings I posted have defects but one is enough to satisfy the zealots. I will post new technically perfect 24bit source file loopback cable recordings tomorrow when I have run some QA checks.
Dan.
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Oh, by the way and about the KEF's.I want to try this on my speakers. I suspect the B&W’s will fare less well than the KEF’s
You know that I disliked those speakers at first listenings.
Yesterday, I tried to use the auxiliary input, playing some tunes in my smartphones with Chromecast and Power amp, that offer a parametric equalizer. I did a little slowly descending equalisation.
Much more better. I tried to figure out what was the band of frequency that annoys me. It seems it is around 10KHz.
So, is-it likely the brutal membrane break of the bass medium driver that i dislike ? (see attached).

Too, I had done a little attenuation at 2kHz, I was surprized that it corresponded to a bump in the response curve, that I discovered after on the attached curve.
It is a pity Kef do not offer a parametric equalizer via its DSP, instead of those mysterious and confusing options (shelves, distances of the wals, live or dump room).
Tweako audiophiles do this all of the time. All this circus of the last few days from you to prove this?Why not cables in a range of defined sounds or moods and at sensible cost....neutral or silver or gold or detailed or natural or laid back etc etc etc....it's perfectly possible and without the usual cable vendor nonsense explanations
Dan.
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