In other matters, the SF Bay Area had a small hi fi show about 1 week ago. It was too small to travel to attend, but it was better than nothing. I doubt that they will have another one next year. I did discover that some of my favorite vinyl records were actually digitally mastered. (Chesky for example) Why I have not found that normal digital playback like DVD, SACD or CD is not as good sounding as a quality vinyl rendition is still a challenge for me to understand.
You need an extremely good dac. The ones on the Stereophile recommended equipment list might be worth comparing to see what you like. An Oppo player is unlikely to do it, nor is an ESS evaluation board. Unfortunately, really good digital still isn't cheap. It isn't only the manufacturers to blame either. Consumers would typically rather have more bells and whistles rather than better sound quality if they are able to pay a little more than the minimum.
Part of the problem of course is that many amplifiers and speakers aren't good enough to hear what the best dacs can do. Another part of the problem is there are no more hi-fi stores where people can go to hear better equipment. Too many problems and not enough solutions, I guess.
If anything has been proven since we started recording and doing playback, it's that it is a million-trillion times easier to capture the sound than reproduce it. Measurements are like that, too. We can measure wildly low levels of a lot of stuff, but getting things to those low levels is very challenging.
Vinyl has a transfer where you supersede problems with digital, because it becomes physical. Think of cutter as something like the ultimate DAC. As it rotates and drags the cutter in pattern, instead of trying to fill the "stair steps" it merely just doesn't lift from the medium. It's like connecting dots with a pencil vs a printer that makes dots to connect them. RF, ground loops, etc, are left behind.
Then you have electronics that don't do I/V, they just add gain. You get to trade off all the digital nasty stuffs for circuits that don't necessarily appear astutely accurate, but follow principles of what every body likes in sound for their preamps & amps.
I can say all of that, and I'm sure there is lots I don't know... including if maybe none of that matter... But that is how I tend to imagine why it's so much more pleasurable on vinyl. Then again many of the older digitally recorded albums cut to vinyl were still mastered and produced by often much better people than we have today. (there's a few out there still, but many of them suck, and their equipment may not be as good for sound as some older stuff)
Vinyl has a transfer where you supersede problems with digital, because it becomes physical. Think of cutter as something like the ultimate DAC. As it rotates and drags the cutter in pattern, instead of trying to fill the "stair steps" it merely just doesn't lift from the medium. It's like connecting dots with a pencil vs a printer that makes dots to connect them. RF, ground loops, etc, are left behind.
Then you have electronics that don't do I/V, they just add gain. You get to trade off all the digital nasty stuffs for circuits that don't necessarily appear astutely accurate, but follow principles of what every body likes in sound for their preamps & amps.
I can say all of that, and I'm sure there is lots I don't know... including if maybe none of that matter... But that is how I tend to imagine why it's so much more pleasurable on vinyl. Then again many of the older digitally recorded albums cut to vinyl were still mastered and produced by often much better people than we have today. (there's a few out there still, but many of them suck, and their equipment may not be as good for sound as some older stuff)
Considering how many of my vinyl music sucks, I can not concur to that.
Don’t blame or hail the medium.
George
Could you please be more specific and put this "extremely good DAC" in terms of specifications?
I'm really curious what would differentiate (from a spec and/or measurements perspective) an "extremely good DAC" from a "good DAC".
Disclosure: except for pathological implementation cases (e.g. I've seen one that did not separate the analog ground from the digital ground), I'm having troubles hearing any difference between any 24bit/192KHz DACs. But then everybody knows I am stone deaf.
Actually, that's a really good question. I don't think I can set a pass/fail dividing line, if that's what you mean. Measurements of Benchmark DAC-3 are available at Stereophile, and obviously it measures very well. In addition, perhaps in part because there are no more hi-fi stores, I haven't been able to listen to as many good dacs as I would like, and of dacs that are probably very, very good not all of them have published specifications available to look at. Ideally, there would be some way to both listen and look at specifications, and over time try to develop some correlation between what one finds to be good sound and good measurements. To my knowledge nobody has done that yet although another audio website out there seems to have an aim of making some progress in that area.
Another possible wrinkle with measurements for dacs is that I don't know if we yet have any standardized way of measuring state variable settling artifacts. Seems like it should be possible, but without a standard it would be hard to know how one attempt at measurement might compare with another.
You just poetically described a low pass filter. Real DACs do have one, it’s called “reconstruction filter”. There’s no risk in saying that, by any metric, compared to an electronic LPF, the cutter mechanical LPF is crap.
Besides, the cutter doesn’t get at the input anything that was not already LP filtered after the digital processing. So there are no dots to connect, except for those that want to believe yet another bull chips story.
Then, if you can’t really say what an “extremely good DAC” is, how can you recommend such?
Oh, and the probability of not publishing specifications is directly proportional to the price point.
Oh, and the probability of not publishing specifications is directly proportional to the price point.
Vinyl, it may have some awful albums/versions, but it also has the best. This all or nothing attitude isn't useful for much except chest puffing - obviously no one gives a **** since vinyl out sells CDs and has gained populaity in recent years.
??
since when are Vinyl sales bigger than CD sales?
Vinyl LP sales accounted for 14 percent of all physical album sales in 2017, The Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" top selling vinyl LP.
TOP 10 SELLING VINYL ALBUMS OF 2017 IN U.S.
Rank Artist, Title Sales
1 The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band 72,000
2 The Beatles, Abbey Road 66,000
3 Soundtrack, Guardians of the Galaxy: Awesome Mix Vol. 1 62,000
4 Ed Sheeran, ÷ (Divide) 62,000
5 Amy Winehouse, Back to Black 58,000
6 Prince and the Revolution, Purple Rain (Soundtrack) 58,000
7 Bob Marley and The Wailers, Legend: The Best Of… 49,000
8 Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon 54,000
9 Soundtrack, La La Land 49,000
U.S. Vinyl Album Sales Hit Nielsen Music-Era Record High in 2017 | Billboard
fyi, "music-era record high", refers to 1991 to present)
Cheers
Alan
since when are Vinyl sales bigger than CD sales?
Vinyl LP sales accounted for 14 percent of all physical album sales in 2017, The Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" top selling vinyl LP.
TOP 10 SELLING VINYL ALBUMS OF 2017 IN U.S.
Rank Artist, Title Sales
1 The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band 72,000
2 The Beatles, Abbey Road 66,000
3 Soundtrack, Guardians of the Galaxy: Awesome Mix Vol. 1 62,000
4 Ed Sheeran, ÷ (Divide) 62,000
5 Amy Winehouse, Back to Black 58,000
6 Prince and the Revolution, Purple Rain (Soundtrack) 58,000
7 Bob Marley and The Wailers, Legend: The Best Of… 49,000
8 Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon 54,000
9 Soundtrack, La La Land 49,000
U.S. Vinyl Album Sales Hit Nielsen Music-Era Record High in 2017 | Billboard
fyi, "music-era record high", refers to 1991 to present)
Cheers
Alan
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You're right, it is digital downloads I was thinking of CDs, vinyl are outselling digital downloads for the first time since 2011 - The Washington Post
I generally agree with you but I am not sure about separating analog and digital ground. I have seen it done because of a perceived need or poor app note recommendations, which then leads to EMC failures. I guess it's fine to separate if the converter is entirely on the analog side and there is galvanic isolation of the digital side. If you mean partition rather than split we are in agreement.
Slight exaggeration but I take your point. A transmitter is also much simpler than a receiver, it is easier to talk than listen, it's almost a philosophical truth. I'm glad 1950's recordings can sound sooooo good 😀
Google Topping Audio, Chris. It is hard to tell how good the cheap DAC's will be. Are they cheap if you order 10 to find 1 you like?
Thanks Destroyer OS,
I hadn't a clue what that meant.
As for DAC's, I've improved quite a few now and cheap DAC's never cut it compared to the better and more expensive ones. It turns out that not only is the DAC chip important, but so is the case, power supply, clock and how you treat the audio afterwards. Good drive ability is important too. Going from DAC to the outside world is, well ... suboptimal at best.
Somehow I doubt you could buy ten cheap DACs and find one you like. Maybe one not as bad as the others, but not one that you could keep and use for years. Doing warranty work on CD players and DACs for years taught me a lot about what it takes to create good music from technology.
-Chris
I hadn't a clue what that meant.
As for DAC's, I've improved quite a few now and cheap DAC's never cut it compared to the better and more expensive ones. It turns out that not only is the DAC chip important, but so is the case, power supply, clock and how you treat the audio afterwards. Good drive ability is important too. Going from DAC to the outside world is, well ... suboptimal at best.
Somehow I doubt you could buy ten cheap DACs and find one you like. Maybe one not as bad as the others, but not one that you could keep and use for years. Doing warranty work on CD players and DACs for years taught me a lot about what it takes to create good music from technology.
-Chris
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