I went down that road. Not really possible in practice, which is why I came up with my other solution published earlier.
There is some real research on audibility of jitter. It seems the audibility changes with frequency and jitter on higher frequencies is more audible. And the thresholds for audibility from the tests were quite high. This is another place where more blind testing would be nive. Miklo's testing is the only way to do it. Adding to a recording really just creates a jumble. Modulating the master clock is predictable and repeatable. And you could use different spectra of jitter.
Bob Katz did some experiments on adding harmonic distortion and seems to have found an optimum. its worth reading at least: Katz's Corner Episode 25: Adventures in Distortion | InnerFidelity What he did not address is the effect of multiple stages adding distortion. Not to mention whether his speakers may have complimentary distortions???
Bob Katz did some experiments on adding harmonic distortion and seems to have found an optimum. its worth reading at least: Katz's Corner Episode 25: Adventures in Distortion | InnerFidelity What he did not address is the effect of multiple stages adding distortion. Not to mention whether his speakers may have complimentary distortions???
Yes, I read Katz's article before but note he uses music & listening impressions to evaluate the various 2nd harmonic distortions, not listening to 1KHz tone
Maybe some one else will be able to do it. How to make the driver/VC etal into one. There are many other good problem solvers here. Especially, those who got involved with the distortion reduction in spkrs. There were a lot of ideas created there.
So how can one configure a driver to give LVDT like signal?
THx-RNMarsh
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This falls into the LIKE category of design. I LIKE it or not. And how much I Like. That goes no where STILL. Except in circles. What type and how much audible distortion will we all like? Or to each his own likes? Such thinking is what keeps audio in the Product of the Week mode.
Not for me. Let's like what we have but strive for greater accuracy.
THx-RNMarsh
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Just a point - what we see in Miklos plots is not 2nd harmonic distortion spike, it's close-in distortion products (many of them) as a result of jitter. Categorizing it as 2nd harmonic distortion is somewhat misleading but the masking question to still applies
sorry you read me that way. I didnt say in any fashion it was 2H. I was stating what I have heard here that any lower level signals close to the fundamental will be masked and not heard. Such as... 2H is close to fundamental etc. Not that I fully believe that myself.
Seems that jitter - however shown or displayed -- makes a spot size image much larger in diameter. Blurred or fuzzy boundary/imaging.
THx-RNMarsh
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Regarding following speech in a noisy environment. If I am in a crowded space I enjoy tuning into different conversations around. I seem to be pretty good at it. No idea if this is any measure of my hearing or brainDSP ability of just that I'm nosy
That’s generally considered evidence of hearing acuity.
Aging affects the balance of neural entrainment and top-down neural modulation in the listening brain | Nature Communications
Again, yes I listened to music, and nada.
I guess you have to come up with a specific music passage for the test to possibly reveal anything.
Sure, I know you didn't want to imply that this was simply 2H distortion but others seem to have run with that.
Yes, I agree - close-in phase noise or jitter would seem to blurr signal purity, that's why I echoed your interest in how this jitter was perceived when listening to complex signals such as music.
Perhaps & perhaps you also need to be aware of what to listen for the psychoacoustic effects that might be perceptible
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Yes, & more specifically, diminished ability in processing of Temporal Fine Structure is thought to be one of the characteristics of aging
The effects of age on temporal fine structure sensitivity in monaural and binaural conditions.
Citation? I've never read a thing that suggests we can just lump these nonharmonic hash into 2H masking.
Yes, partly why I find some of the hearing acuity claims so difficult to view as remotely plausible, when the much more obvious and likely explanation is that it’s one of the many phenomena of hearing degeneration.
(Speaking with regard to thread participants / men over 40... young children, women, etc. another story, but they could seem to care less about much of the conversation here).
Unless of course there is a chance of some hitherto unexplored area within the audible range, not down in the muck, which we are unable to presently understand. If that could be true the place to look imho is in psychoacoustic phenomena that can withstand the hearing degeneration process.
The place I think we should be looking for that is in medical not engineering journals, or else this will just continue to be huffing and puffing about.
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You should probably do some research then into perceptual masking?
Here's a starting point for you Auditory masking - Wikiwand
And maybe something more to your liking - you cited ASR before so allow me to do the same & quote one of many statements by Amir about masking
Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Edit: Or this more comprehensive article by Amir Audibility of Small Distortions | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
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Yes.
And has it been discussed yet that being left or right handed effects your hearing?
Deutsch's scale illusion - Wikiwand
And has it been discussed yet that being left or right handed effects your hearing?
Deutsch's scale illusion - Wikiwand
Well, it doesn't seem to have effected my music listening &/or differentiation of sonic differences when it comes to solidity of soundstage presentation, depth of soundstage, individual location of auditory objects, clarity & realism of the presentation?
So, perhaps there is an alternative view to what you state above - this sort of increased sensitivity with age to background noise interference with signal makes us actually more sensitive to small reductions in such background noise in our playback systems i.e. we didn't notice this so much when younger as we had more facility to deal with noise?
In other words, playback systems that aid us (our degenerated facility) to pull signal out of the background will be equivalent to getting new glasses which snap things into focus
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But then how do you rectify that with other effects of recruitment? Variations in perceived loudness certainly can’t be limited to background noise and aren’t the same across a population.
Just like when we gain weight gradually we don’t seem to notice as much as someone who has not seen us in a long while, the same could be said for our hearing degeneration. It’s hard to imagine our hearing from when we were younger. I don’t see how one could really assess that with a high degree of certainty without regular in depth testing for comparison.
Obviously it’s a complex topic and a bit of a lost cause to define what type of hearing is “correct”.
In order to say one thing is better and one thing is not, we have to ask “for whom?”. Perhaps high priced amps should say: designed for men over 55.
Or should one use DSP to make the amplifier sound more like it would have as a younger person? The necessary filtering would horrify most here I think.
But I respect all and agree with many of your statements. I think this topic deserves much more airtime.
To me this area is the elephant in the room, which many of the discussions try to neatly circumvent.
I believe only gpauk here has publicly posted a hearing test,
Just like when we gain weight gradually we don’t seem to notice as much as someone who has not seen us in a long while, the same could be said for our hearing degeneration. It’s hard to imagine our hearing from when we were younger. I don’t see how one could really assess that with a high degree of certainty without regular in depth testing for comparison.
Obviously it’s a complex topic and a bit of a lost cause to define what type of hearing is “correct”.
In order to say one thing is better and one thing is not, we have to ask “for whom?”. Perhaps high priced amps should say: designed for men over 55.
Or should one use DSP to make the amplifier sound more like it would have as a younger person? The necessary filtering would horrify most here I think.
But I respect all and agree with many of your statements. I think this topic deserves much more airtime.
To me this area is the elephant in the room, which many of the discussions try to neatly circumvent.
I believe only gpauk here has publicly posted a hearing test,
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