That the systems under test are not "that" time invariant, might happen, but that would be a general problem for any perceptual evaluation independent from the "blind" or "sighted" condition, wouldn't it?
If the approximation (means approx. a LTI system) does not hold in reality, we can't use our reasoning based on the "LTI-property" .
Using models means being aware that the model at some points will not (does not) reflect the reality in a sufficient way, then it is time for a change. 🙂
Let's rephrase the question: why would there be a settling issue for a musical transient on a cd ? If there was, could the system ever settle when faced with a 20khz sine wave ?
No, let's keep it simple and not involve digital problems in there. One issue at a time.
Indeed but NFM isn't really one of the standard tests seen - two tone IMD, yes - multitone IMD, not so much.Even with multitone IMD test signal we don;t see anything dynamic in the test signal itself.
What I would love to see would be a multitone test signal which is dynamically changing the amplitude of each tone & seeing the variation in the noise floor as a result - it probably would not be that difficult to design such a test signal with appropriate tone frequencies & crest factors?
Merrill,
Nope ........ what you said - colloquially or not, about ‘Technicolour sound’ made about as much sense as ‘Western Electric colour’.
ToS
Nice talk man.......but even the occasional reader will notice that any quote from the relevant literature (that corrobates your point of view) is still missing.
"Steady state system"?
Don't play dumb; you know that the correct term to denote a system that does not change over time is "time invariant" and that steady state means something different.
Have you ever seen time record of 30 tone multitone? You think it is not "dynamically changing"? 🙄
Let's not go back to this as everyone knows what is/was meant - ultra-realism often associated with digital audio
No, I haven't seen a time record of multitone tests - have you got a link?
Are the amplitudes of each tone changing dynamically?
audio testing of Apple lightning headphone DAC
I have just done a subjective comparison test between a £9 Apple lightening headphone socket DAC adapter, an iPad headphone socket DAC, an iPod shuffle headphone socket DAC.
I chose Mstislav Rostropovich’s interpretation of the Bach cello suites, mainly because I like Bach, and the recording is exceptional. I queued everything up at the same volume levels and swopping on the fly between two pairs of AudioTechnica ATH-M50X headphones, I hit the play buttons simultaneously.
There were no audible differences between the Apple lightening DAC and the iPad headphone socket DAC. I expected this.
There was a slight improvement in resolution of very subtle sounds in the iPod shuffle headphone socket DAC, and is what I already use for most of my listening. I also expected this.
The ALAC sound quality from all three DACs was to my ear very good.
So, my question is:- for what is an exceptional performance from a £9 DAC, how much more can be reasonably expected from DACs that cost £100, or £250 or even £1000, and where is the price plateau of diminishing returns?
ToS
I have just done a subjective comparison test between a £9 Apple lightening headphone socket DAC adapter, an iPad headphone socket DAC, an iPod shuffle headphone socket DAC.
I chose Mstislav Rostropovich’s interpretation of the Bach cello suites, mainly because I like Bach, and the recording is exceptional. I queued everything up at the same volume levels and swopping on the fly between two pairs of AudioTechnica ATH-M50X headphones, I hit the play buttons simultaneously.
There were no audible differences between the Apple lightening DAC and the iPad headphone socket DAC. I expected this.
There was a slight improvement in resolution of very subtle sounds in the iPod shuffle headphone socket DAC, and is what I already use for most of my listening. I also expected this.
The ALAC sound quality from all three DACs was to my ear very good.
So, my question is:- for what is an exceptional performance from a £9 DAC, how much more can be reasonably expected from DACs that cost £100, or £250 or even £1000, and where is the price plateau of diminishing returns?
ToS
Steady state system: for example a time variant system that reached the steady state. A power amplifier reaching the thermal equilibrium is a fine example, although there is no reason to consider it as such for analysis purposes; a local LTI approximation will do just fine. This is because the time constants associated with thermal effects are much larger than the test signal timing/periods.
"Steady state measurement(s)", Google returns no relevant references, other than some medical journal papers, which can be safely considered irrelevant in this (electrical) context. Therefore, I have nothing to prove; if you want to push a "steady state measurement(s)" terminology you have to prove the acceptance of this concept. And you have the nerve to ask me for relevant references, like you provided anything remotely relevant (without your personal interpretation of quotes).
Now you are sticking to this stupid debate, shifting the topic toward a semantic "potato-potatoe" debate (one of your method of choice to obfuscate discussions). While deliberately missing that, whatever you call it, "single cycle" transient response measurements (the right terminology) are providing no extra insights to audio measurements, nothing that testing with periodic signals could not reveal.
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Merrill,
I spent almost my entire career working in the media industries, and never once have I ever heard the expression, colloquial or otherwise, ‘Technicolor sound’. It shows that you just make things up as you go along because they sound good to you at the time, and when you get found out, you kick off.
Which brings me back to the perennial question:- just exactly what do you do as a day job besides hugging a keyboard?
ToS
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Possibly what he referred to earlier as a "thought experiment"? They've all been dead ends so far.....perhaps because he's not interested in doing an actual experiment?
Scott,
From the moment I get up till when I collapse exhausted at night, I am constantly experimenting. It - is - what - I - do.
So, this is why I am on Merrill’s case, as his constant obfuscation simply does not add up as standard modus operandi for someone genuinely interested in audio. Anyway, I am getting bored with this.
ToS
Well thanks for the input on me, Markw4. I agree with it. Bybee really puts me in a jam sometimes by using my name recklessly (for advertising value) and leaving me to explain it away to my critics, but overall, he is a pretty good guy, and I have learned a great deal from him, especially about physics. He's for real, but he does go over the top in his adverts.
I do live modestly, and sometimes Bybee has tried to generate projects that might make me more financially more secure in my old age (I'm there now) but I have made little from them. One project was a Bybee-Curl outlet box that contains all kinds of exotic stuff from him and a minor lightning arrestor ckt from me, that I did for him over 20 years ago. He said that he would give me the profits, to help me for my future security. Unfortunately, they were too costly, and even more important, too difficult to build, so Jack abandoned the project. I did get the prototype, finally as a consolation prize, and I use in my big system. Inside, it looks like something made by the KRELL! I have now idea what most of it is, but it works!
SY got a hold of some advertisement of this product and never has forgiven me, but I did not know what it was in advance. It was supposed to be a surprise, I guess.
What is important, is that I support (generally) exotic tweaks and mods that seem to improve audio fidelity. Not all could possibly work, but many do, in my experience. Just because I do this, does not make me a 'crook' or a 'fool'. It just means that I TRY to keep an open mind about these things, in order not to miss something useful and therefore important. I already know how to design an audio product, what I need to know is how to make it better!
I do live modestly, and sometimes Bybee has tried to generate projects that might make me more financially more secure in my old age (I'm there now) but I have made little from them. One project was a Bybee-Curl outlet box that contains all kinds of exotic stuff from him and a minor lightning arrestor ckt from me, that I did for him over 20 years ago. He said that he would give me the profits, to help me for my future security. Unfortunately, they were too costly, and even more important, too difficult to build, so Jack abandoned the project. I did get the prototype, finally as a consolation prize, and I use in my big system. Inside, it looks like something made by the KRELL! I have now idea what most of it is, but it works!
SY got a hold of some advertisement of this product and never has forgiven me, but I did not know what it was in advance. It was supposed to be a surprise, I guess.
What is important, is that I support (generally) exotic tweaks and mods that seem to improve audio fidelity. Not all could possibly work, but many do, in my experience. Just because I do this, does not make me a 'crook' or a 'fool'. It just means that I TRY to keep an open mind about these things, in order not to miss something useful and therefore important. I already know how to design an audio product, what I need to know is how to make it better!
Yes, so many arguments of those in high-end audio depend on illegal signals that violate sampling theory and would have to be generated by software.
The mmerrill99 and Jakob2 circus continues.
I’m not sure I’d call someone that uses your name without asking in marketing material a good guy. That’s a **** thing to do.
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AM on each tone would create sidebands on each tone so the modulation would need to be very slow. As I mentioned there is literature on crest factor of multi-tone signals and this might be possible, I'll take a look (no promises). If you just want a set of multi-tones with increasing crest factor this is easy I have done this for ADSL.
Who has run a digital tests signal and watched the noise floor of the analog change?
Assuming both in same box close to each other.
THx-RNMarsh
Assuming both in same box close to each other.
THx-RNMarsh
I'm not sure what I'm looking at here - can you explain?
I went to the ARTA manual & saw this "Multitone test signals contain mix of sine signals with different amplitudes and phases"
I don;t interpret this to mean the same as I mean - I mean a multitone test signal that has in it 30 (or whatever number) different sine frequencies & this test signal dynamically varies the amplitudes of each frequency.
Is that what you meant?
"found out" - what are you talking about? If you do a search on this forum you will see the term used - sound described as technicolored.
I appreciated your technical detailing of technicolor but you then went into abuse as you do again here - please desist from this constant abuse
This stuff belongs with the Electric Universe The Electric Universe Theory and the Apollo landings were faked garbage.
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