I do find that this experiment does prove a point though. Or so it seems. That capacitors, wire and resistors were of no consequence in that particular test.
On the face of it, what Bob Carver pulled off should be impossible. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. What about the audible differences between transistors, capacitors, internal wiring—all the things that we know contribute to the superiority of no-holds barred amplifiers? What about all the things that amplifier designers have learned during the past 20 years, which enable them to build better amplifiers (at whatever price) than have ever been built before? How could all of these things have been factored into the relatively quick and painless transformation of an average amplifier into a world-beater? But, of course, the "factoring-in" was the key to all this.
You see, Bob didn't have to concern himself about quality capacitors, minimal internal wiring, gold connectors, or any of those things; all he needed to do was duplicate, at the output of his amplifier, the sum of their effects at the output of the reference amp. Once he had obtained the necessarily deep null between those amplifiers, it was his belief that ears were not going to pick up on what was left. To do this, he needed only (!!) to know how to change practically any parameter of his amplifier's performance—a knowledge which we must now acknowledge is his.
You're right, my memory was faulty, they didn't bother to do anything with the sort of rigor a paying reader should expect.
they didn't bother to do anything with the sort of rigor a paying reader should expect.
They got entertainment! Lasting entertainment! They certainly expect that (and mostly don't get it).
BTW since the amps imitated had differently characterized outputs, is it not likely, scientificly speaking, folk would hear a difference? In time domain JND can get down to @5 microseconds.
Though they didn't bother to do it, I'd guess that the amps in question could have been distinguished in a blind test before the change in the SS amp's output impedance and distortion; one needn't invoke esoteric and controversial factors. After... probably not.
Well, a guy can't even get a night's sleep, without revolution by the next morning. ;-)
Some here think that Bob Carver can do no wrong. I recommend that they buy Carver products as best they can, and be done with it.
I have, of course, known Bob Carver since the early '70's. He is one smart guy, a physicist, like most audio designers, and seemingly deaf to subtle musical quality. Probably due to his higher education, and the toll it appears to have imposed in his listening ability, also demonstrated by a number of others contributing here. Ref. 'Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain' or a similar title that I have here.
He has also 'proved' that crossover distortion is inaudible, and poor regulation of power supplies, i.e. small caps, is actually an advantage in power amp design.
He is strictly mid-fi, with effects, and he only makes expensive examples to 'shoot them down' in double blind listening tests, that are flawed in the first place. He is truly in the 'non-believer' camp, which is OK with me, as he doesn't tell me how to run my life or design audio products, at least, not on a daily basis.
Some here think that Bob Carver can do no wrong. I recommend that they buy Carver products as best they can, and be done with it.
I have, of course, known Bob Carver since the early '70's. He is one smart guy, a physicist, like most audio designers, and seemingly deaf to subtle musical quality. Probably due to his higher education, and the toll it appears to have imposed in his listening ability, also demonstrated by a number of others contributing here. Ref. 'Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain' or a similar title that I have here.
He has also 'proved' that crossover distortion is inaudible, and poor regulation of power supplies, i.e. small caps, is actually an advantage in power amp design.
He is strictly mid-fi, with effects, and he only makes expensive examples to 'shoot them down' in double blind listening tests, that are flawed in the first place. He is truly in the 'non-believer' camp, which is OK with me, as he doesn't tell me how to run my life or design audio products, at least, not on a daily basis.
poor regulation of power supplies, i.e. small caps, is actually an advantage in power amp design.
Several people on this thread (Bas?) have made the same claim. Personally, it makes no sense to me (your approach seems much more logical and the results show it), but there's no accounting for fashion.
strictly mid-fi, with effects.
Attachments
Why bother responding with such a weak insult?
"What the Bleep do we Know?" was one of the worst pieces of psuedo-cult trash I have seen in years. It was packed with Steiner-esqe blather. Guess what?, he was influenced by Theosophy, no surprise. I won't bore folks with my choice Steiner quotes like speaking French destroys one's ability to think.
Is that a film review of yours, or criticism on the entire body of work of Amit Goswami?
This is the high priced comparison sample that he used to 'prove' that he generated the same 'quality' with his cheaper solid state amps.
There are other measurements that do catch those. Google 'group delay'.
jd
From Wikipedia on group delay:
"Group delay in the audio field"
"Group delay has some importance in the audio field and especially in the sound reproduction field. Many components of an audio reproduction chain, notably loudspeakers and multiway loudspeakers crossover networks, introduce group delay in the audio signal. It is therefore important to know the threshold of audibility of group delay with respect to frequency, especially if the audio chain is supposed to provide a high fidelity reproduction. At the time of writing no extensive data is available, and the concept is often treated by "rule of thumb" or based on hunches and received wisdom."
This is getting inane. If the audiophiles could scientifically demonstrate that they can hear the ppb differences between a tantalum resistor and a metal film resistor (just for example), then there would be something to investigate further. But they can’t, and any such claimed ability just remains implausible B.S.
I can demonstrate it.
From Wikipedia on group delay:
"Group delay in the audio field"
"Group delay has some importance in the audio field and especially in the sound reproduction field. Many components of an audio reproduction chain, notably loudspeakers and multiway loudspeakers crossover networks, introduce group delay in the audio signal. It is therefore important to know the threshold of audibility of group delay with respect to frequency, especially if the audio chain is supposed to provide a high fidelity reproduction. At the time of writing no extensive data is available, and the concept is often treated by "rule of thumb" or based on hunches and received wisdom."
So what does this do to your statement that things like frequency dependent phaseshift are not often measured but can be heard?
jd
That doesn't matter SY, he built the tube amp to compare to his solid state amps. Ask him, yourself.
Well in that regard, usually a combination (each to varying degrees) of delusion, stupidity, self-interest and con artistry.I guess the manufacturers that use on type or the other to voice their products are also delusional
So, you hold that you know better than SOTA audio gear manufacturers what it takes to produce great sounding gear. Good for you.
Like I said, stereo is the ultimate delusion. You're not alone Joshua!😉
jd
And you say it about something I assume you never heard.
So, you hold that you know better than SOTA audio gear manufacturers what it takes to produce great sounding gear. Good for you.
Having seen some of the stuff Glenn is spending his time on, I would not be surprised if he actually knows what he is talking about.
Many of the applications he is involved in, are far more demanding than an audio amplifier.
Magura 🙂
Having seen some of the stuff Glenn is spending his time on, I would not be surprised if he actually knows what he is talking about.
Many of the applications he is involved in, are far more demanding than an audio amplifier.
Seconded.
So what does this do to your statement that things like frequency dependent phaseshift are not often measured but can be heard?
jd
There isn't an accepted procedure and quantification to test Group Delay, not yet.
Having seen some of the stuff Glenn is spending his time on, I would not be surprised if he actually knows what he is talking about.
Many of the applications he is involved in, are far more demanding than an audio amplifier.
Magura 🙂
No doubt there are many fields that require high degree of expertise. However, it may be wrong to project from other fields on SOTA audio gear design.
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