Hi,
Well, using resistor A and resistor B as example...: )
As an engineer who designs audio gear that is meant to be used to listen to music (and movies) for pleasure, I would take whatever device would appear to be better, as long as it does not put me over budget or costs me budget better spend elsewhere. 😎
I might even conduct blind listening tests to find if there is any reliable preference for one resistor over the other with a range of listeners and decide that some extra budget may be good for sales, spends here. 😎
I might also observe that my electronic audio widget has many resistors many of which appear in series for non-linear and non-ideal effects and therefore may be cumulative, so just one resistor may not have much of an effect, but all resistors in my product...? 😉
As a scientist I would say that we have observations in multiple and widely differing fields that are mutually supportive. What we lack is a "smoking gun". 😕
As a scientist I would be willing to cautiously call the implied theory that "A and B are different in measurable and audible terms, therefore they are different" possible, but would observe that there is insufficient evidence to make a firm determination. 😕
As a scientist I would also observe that I do not have the time and funds to do the necessary experiments, unless someone wants to give me a large grant to to the work, but all such grants now go to research connected to man-made global warming and no matter how hard I try, I cannot connect audible distortion in resistors with global warming, so sorry, no can do. 🙄
If I was one of the malign audio objectivists. one of those defenders of the orthodox faith of "all sounds the same". One of those white knights in shining armour who claim to protect the poor unwary, uneducated and moronic customer from those who want to extract their hard earned cash by selling them a supposedly superior sounding resistor for the same one as one that does not sound as good, then I would be mortally offended... 😱
Then I would for example perform a resistance measurement on resistor A and resistor B, claim "they measure the same" (even though measurements that show differences already exist in publications and I should know better) and then proceed to set up a blind listening tests intentionally designed from the outset to return a null result due to statistical tricks and then publish the results of this test and falsely claim proof that such differences do not exist. 😕
Then I would proceed to publicly harangue anyone and call them little deluded dupes, who repeats such silly, stupid and false observations and claim they are all out to defraud the public. 😡
The problem with this is of course, we are no further than at the beginning, except for the engineer who uses these resistors, has products that regarded as better by those who buy them and hence sell better and who is not telling anything, in order not give away useful information to the competition and in order not to reduce the competitive advantage his products have... 😀
So from where this engineer sits, all is well and a change is undesirable. 😛
Ciao T
Well, using resistor A and resistor B as example...: )
As an engineer who designs audio gear that is meant to be used to listen to music (and movies) for pleasure, I would take whatever device would appear to be better, as long as it does not put me over budget or costs me budget better spend elsewhere. 😎
I might even conduct blind listening tests to find if there is any reliable preference for one resistor over the other with a range of listeners and decide that some extra budget may be good for sales, spends here. 😎
I might also observe that my electronic audio widget has many resistors many of which appear in series for non-linear and non-ideal effects and therefore may be cumulative, so just one resistor may not have much of an effect, but all resistors in my product...? 😉
As a scientist I would say that we have observations in multiple and widely differing fields that are mutually supportive. What we lack is a "smoking gun". 😕
As a scientist I would be willing to cautiously call the implied theory that "A and B are different in measurable and audible terms, therefore they are different" possible, but would observe that there is insufficient evidence to make a firm determination. 😕
As a scientist I would also observe that I do not have the time and funds to do the necessary experiments, unless someone wants to give me a large grant to to the work, but all such grants now go to research connected to man-made global warming and no matter how hard I try, I cannot connect audible distortion in resistors with global warming, so sorry, no can do. 🙄
If I was one of the malign audio objectivists. one of those defenders of the orthodox faith of "all sounds the same". One of those white knights in shining armour who claim to protect the poor unwary, uneducated and moronic customer from those who want to extract their hard earned cash by selling them a supposedly superior sounding resistor for the same one as one that does not sound as good, then I would be mortally offended... 😱
Then I would for example perform a resistance measurement on resistor A and resistor B, claim "they measure the same" (even though measurements that show differences already exist in publications and I should know better) and then proceed to set up a blind listening tests intentionally designed from the outset to return a null result due to statistical tricks and then publish the results of this test and falsely claim proof that such differences do not exist. 😕
Then I would proceed to publicly harangue anyone and call them little deluded dupes, who repeats such silly, stupid and false observations and claim they are all out to defraud the public. 😡
The problem with this is of course, we are no further than at the beginning, except for the engineer who uses these resistors, has products that regarded as better by those who buy them and hence sell better and who is not telling anything, in order not give away useful information to the competition and in order not to reduce the competitive advantage his products have... 😀
So from where this engineer sits, all is well and a change is undesirable. 😛
Ciao T
Here's one story about wood blocks. (I have another one that is just as crazy.)
We had just completed the prototype version of our MX-R power amplifier. We borrowed a pair of WATT/Puppy 7's to use. Before CES we set up the system for three weeks to fully burn in, running 24/7. During that time I became very familiar with the way it sounded.
When I got to the show, our crew had the system all set up exactly as it had been at the factory, to duplicate the sound we got at the shop. But something was wrong. It just didn't sound right.
We had exhibited in the exact same room at Alexis Park hotel for three years running. I knew what the room sounded like. I listened to several CD's to be sure. Something was definitely wrong with the sound. Then we started trying to figure out what the problem was. At first we were focused on the room acoustics, trying different absorbers. Nothing worked.
Then after four hours, in frustration I leaned against the wall and kicked the floor. I was bummed. It was midnight and the show was starting in ten hours. There was no place to buy or borrow any other AC filters, acoustic tuning devices, speakers, or anything. I was tired and frustrated.
And as I looked down, I noticed there was one power cord (for the preamp) behind the equipment rack that was missing ONE wood block that held it off the carpet. The result was that about ten inches of the power cord rested on the carpet. (Every other speaker cable, power cord, and interconnect was completely held above the floor by wood blocks.)
We put that ONE wood block in and everything was fine. Sounded just like it did at the factory. Explain that one to me. I can't. I don't even know how wood blocks work....
Sorry Ed, I was finishing up a detailed reply when I pressed the wrong button on my keyboard (long story, but don't ever get hit by a motorcycle). Everything was lost and I am too tired to re-do it. Maybe some other day -- I have a lot on my plate. Thanks for understanding.
For increasing feedback: That the relative distortion spectrum transitions from the open-loop transfer-function distortion-characteristic to the distortion-characteristic of the inverse of the open-loop transfer-function is new to me. This is a useful insight. I've never encountered it before (but have the feeling that I just missed it, or that it was obvious to everyone already.)
Scott, I thought that we were talking about production shops not toys 🙂 A Martin T74 is a production table saw, not a carpenters tool like a lunch box planer or a job site table saw! Last I checked you won't find a CNC or a laser on a job site either 🙂
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've never heard of it either, but that also doesn't prove a lot. Anybody who DID hear about it, possibly a ref or link?
jan didden
Oh, those non-existent guys that I keep hearing about. Useful as a prop, I suppose.
They don't for me.
LR Shooter - I doubt this OT interests anyone else, you win.
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There is of course an explanation how wood blocks work. When sound reflects off a surface, it creates a pressure maximum at the place of reflection. Cables on the floor are right in the middle of all these maximal pressure points, which may cause signal degradation. Especially the power cord is sensitive to this effect in areas where the external power lines are mounted on wooden poles. This preconditions the electrons, and a power cord laying on the floor would cause a sharp discontinuity.
Where I live, all electric power lines are distributed underground, so here a different approach is required. I have achieved excellent results with all my power cords burried solidly under the floor, thus mimicking the natural environment for these electrons and thus preventing sharp discontinuities.
All my other connects don't touch the floor either, but I found that, even better than using wooden blocks, is to suspend all these connects from the ceiling, using chinese silk thread.
This is the distortion of one stage of my bad triode amps with feedback vs two of the same appended!
More noise, but the increase or lack of it in distortion is interesting. Is this an example of cancellation? I did not go to any lengths to match stage gain. 5% parts were used with grid biased triodes.
Oh the colors are reversed so the labeling makes no sense.
More noise, but the increase or lack of it in distortion is interesting. Is this an example of cancellation? I did not go to any lengths to match stage gain. 5% parts were used with grid biased triodes.
Oh the colors are reversed so the labeling makes no sense.
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That goes both ways. You have proposed "those to whom everything sounds the same" who also rig all DBTs to give null results several times recently. Beyond a certain quality level I can't hear these things, so what. We tried to set up a take it home and listen at your leisure DBT but it ran out of steam.
I find choosing speakers and source material far more interesting.
Maybe you can select colors that are even closer to each others so you can test our color separation capabilities as well ! 😀
jan didden
Thanks. We can chat anytime. This is a slow week for me. Only blew up one circuit!
It gets large enough on my screen (second click) that I can see the only difference is on the 3rd harmonic. If you have any suggestions for color choice before reversal do let me know.
Simon,
With all due respect, may I suggest we spend some time (take it off line) and try to improve your test rig.
It will really help to reduce noise and correctly bias the circuit to allow you to see more clearly what goes on. As I have a little bit of experience and success with tube circuits, I may be able to help.
Past that, your diagram is EXTREMELY hard to read, maybe post two seperate ones, or at least high contrast colours? However, distortion cancellation can be expected whenever even numbers of stages are involved.
Ciao T
With all due respect, may I suggest we spend some time (take it off line) and try to improve your test rig.
It will really help to reduce noise and correctly bias the circuit to allow you to see more clearly what goes on. As I have a little bit of experience and success with tube circuits, I may be able to help.
Past that, your diagram is EXTREMELY hard to read, maybe post two seperate ones, or at least high contrast colours? However, distortion cancellation can be expected whenever even numbers of stages are involved.
Ciao T
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